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Unknown bullhead


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#1 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:25 AM

Was wondering if anyone had info on how to identify juvenile brown bullhead vs spotted, I bought a fish from the pet store and am not sure which it is, I don't believe I am allowed to post photo's of it as per the rules but if I'm mistaken please let me know.

Edited by adixon816, 15 September 2013 - 12:33 AM.


#2 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:52 AM

Absolutely post photos. The rule is that no fish are to be removed from a collection site without a positive identification. One of our methods of enforcing this is prohibiting ID requests of fish already brought home (pictures or not). A fish purchased from a pet store is different, since you didn't remove it from the wild.

Photos of the head, especially the barbels, and maybe the tail fin, would help, as well as anything you know about the pet store (like where they get their fish).

#3 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:17 AM

I guess I didn't read the rules as well as I thought. The pet store in question is here in NJ. Many of them use Seagrest farms but I'm not sure where this particular fish came from as the owner was not in that day just a single employee who didn't know much about it. I also never really thought to ask where he sources his fish from, but I have been shopping there for a few years and have never seen a bullhead for sale. The employee just said it was a bullhead and was $7.99 These are the only two pictures that I have right now as it is in my fish room and I am not home, hopefully they can tell you something more if not I can snap some later tonight.Posted ImagePosted Image

#4 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 07:19 AM

adixon,

Thanks for trying to follow the rules. Really appreciate someone that reads them and explains themselves, it makes it so much easier... and gzeiger explained it pretty well too that we are looking to protect the wild populations and want to make sure that we act responsibly out there.

Now on to your ID, based on the coloration I thought brown, spotted or snail... and since all three are known from Alabama, I went to my Fishes of Alabama that has a key in it to species ID.
1. your fish has the correct adipose fin to be a bullhead
2. your fish has a flat or only a very slight fork to the caudal fin (tail)
3. your fish has a short round head
4. your fish has very light colored chin barbels (whiskers)
5. your fish is mottled and has dark edges to the dorsal anal and caudal fins - so he is a snail bullhead Ameiurus brunneus
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 mattknepley

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 07:54 AM

Dave Neely gave me this tip earlier this year and it has been pretty darn useful as a place to begin id-ing bullheads:

"If ever you're unsure on your bullheads, take a minute to gaze into their beady little eyes before you call them a yellow, black, or brown. These three are collectively known as the smalleye bullheads, for good reason. If they look back at you with a more sizeable eye, then you likely have something else."

Your bullhead, a good-lookin' fish I might add, has a big eye for a bullhead.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#6 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:06 AM

adixon,

Thanks for trying to follow the rules. Really appreciate someone that reads them and explains themselves, it makes it so much easier... and gzeiger explained it pretty well too that we are looking to protect the wild populations and want to make sure that we act responsibly out there.

Now on to your ID, based on the coloration I thought brown, spotted or snail... and since all three are known from Alabama, I went to my Fishes of Alabama that has a key in it to species ID.
1. your fish has the correct adipose fin to be a bullhead
2. your fish has a flat or only a very slight fork to the caudal fin (tail)
3. your fish has a short round head
4. your fish has very light colored chin barbels (whiskers)
5. your fish is mottled and has dark edges to the dorsal anal and caudal fins - so he is a snail bullhead Ameiurus brunneus

Thank you for your information, I have gained quite the interest in native fish yet I am no angler so I will not be out catching any myself. I just didn't want to break any rules posting stuff here without asking. May I ask what helps discern this snail bullhead vs a brown? To my untrained eye they all look just about the same to me. I wasn't sure if size would effect identification because he is still quite small. Either way I'm happy that it is actually a bullhead and now have a starting point for my research to determine what size tank I would like and possible tank mates, thank you.

#7 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:09 AM

Dave Neely gave me this tip earlier this year and it has been pretty darn useful as a place to begin id-ing bullheads:

"If ever you're unsure on your bullheads, take a minute to gaze into their beady little eyes before you call them a yellow, black, or brown. These three are collectively known as the smalleye bullheads, for good reason. If they look back at you with a more sizeable eye, then you likely have something else."

Your bullhead, a good-lookin' fish I might add, has a big eye for a bullhead.

Thank you for your information as well, I'm not sure what it means when you say that it has a big eye - is it an indication that it may not be a bullhead or is that it would not be a yellow, black, or brown? I wasn't aware that there are discernible differences like that, this is an entirely new area of fish keeping for me so I appreciate everything.

#8 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:21 AM

May I ask what helps discern this snail bullhead vs a brown? To my untrained eye they all look just about the same to me. I wasn't sure if size would effect identification because he is still quite small. Either way I'm happy that it is actually a bullhead and now have a starting point for my research to determine what size tank I would like and possible tank mates, thank you.


The white chin barbels are one of the key differences that I noticed right away... along with the dark margin to the dorsal and anal fin...

Bullheads are difficult when it comes to tank mates... in general bullheads grow fast and each everyone that fits in their mouth...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#9 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:34 AM

The white chin barbels are one of the key differences that I noticed right away... along with the dark margin to the dorsal and anal fin...

Bullheads are difficult when it comes to tank mates... in general bullheads grow fast and each everyone that fits in their mouth...

Thank you for your explanation, I would like to keep them with some species of sunfish at some point but am unsure which. I have many tanks, around 20 set up currently so having a few tanks for growing out before they meet would not be an issue for me. The snail bullhead stays much smaller then the brown so I am likely to use a 6 foot 125 gallon 72 x 18 x 22 instead of the 120 I had originally planned for a brown 48 x 24 x 24. I am thinking something in along the lines of a group of 6-8 sunfish. Brown bullheads don't have white chin barbels then or is it uncommon? Maybe you could recommend a book for me so I don't have to badger you guys with so many questions.

#10 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:41 AM

While I am not disagreeing with Michael, I do think there is a chance that this might not be a snail. I can't really see the caudal blotch in your photos that would confirm that it is either a snail or a flat. It also doesn't really make sense that a tropical distributor would have snail or flat available as a by catch in tropical shipments. These guys are found in flowing streams with a relatively small range. These most obvious choice would be the Florida strain of the brown bullhead. The coloration is consisten as well.

#11 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:45 AM

While I am not disagreeing with Michael, I do think there is a chance that this might not be a snail. I can't really see the caudal blotch in your photos that would confirm that it is either a snail or a flat. It also doesn't really make sense that a tropical distributor would have snail or flat available as a by catch in tropical shipments. These guys are found in flowing streams with a relatively small range. These most obvious choice would be the Florida strain of the brown bullhead. The coloration is consisten as well.

If I were to try to shoot you another picture, the caudal fin is the rear fin correct? Where would the blotch be located so I can attempt to take a correct picture for you? Are there any other pictures or poses that would aid in identification?

#12 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

I apologize. I mistyped. I meant the dorsal blotch. On snails and flats, the blotch is at the base of the dorsal fin. Try to take some shots showing where the dorsal fin and the body meet. If there is a blotch there, it is likely a snail. If not, it is for sure a brown.

#13 Guest_mzokan_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:18 AM

If this fish is potentially from south Florida, then I would not immediately rule out yellow bullhead either. South Florida yellow bullhead have lots of mottling on their sides and the chin barbels are often dark on the leading edge. The only sure way to tell them from a brown is by counting the anal fin rays.

#14 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

If this fish is potentially from south Florida, then I would not immediately rule out yellow bullhead either. South Florida yellow bullhead have lots of mottling on their sides and the chin barbels are often dark on the leading edge. The only sure way to tell them from a brown is by counting the anal fin rays.

How do I differentiate between the brown and yellow? I mean truthfully either way as long as it's not a black I'll be ok. I just want to chose the appropriate size tank. I want to decide between the 125 and 120g. I will get more pictures of the dorsal fin - would this help with brown vs yellow or is that only anal fin rays.

#15 Guest_gzeiger_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:36 AM

People will be happy to recommend books - in fact if you scroll down the page you'll see an entire forum devoted to the various books on native fish. Don't feel like your questions are bothering anyone though. This is fun for us :)

#16 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:41 AM

People will be happy to recommend books - in fact if you scroll down the page you'll see an entire forum devoted to the various books on native fish. Don't feel like your questions are bothering anyone though. This is fun for us :)

That is good to know, I'm going to go for pictures of the dorsal fins, and try to get one of the anal fin rays shortly to help attempt to get a more solid ID. I am going to try and call the pet store to see if he knows where it came from. -Edit I called the pet store, it is not from Florida. It came in with a batch of feeder fish he thinks from Arkansas or somewhere in that geographic area.

Edited by adixon816, 15 September 2013 - 09:46 AM.


#17 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 11:48 AM

If it did, in fact, come from AR then we can rule out flat and snail. If it came from FL we can rule out flat and most likely snail. I have no experience with AR fish so I don't know their regional variants. I think it could still be either a brown or a yellow with snail being a minor possibility.

#18 Guest_adixon816_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:04 PM

If it did, in fact, come from AR then we can rule out flat and snail. If it came from FL we can rule out flat and most likely snail. I have no experience with AR fish so I don't know their regional variants. I think it could still be either a brown or a yellow with snail being a minor possibility.

Is there a best way to differentiate brown vs yellow or easy way at such a small size.

#19 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:18 PM

Dustin, why are we ignoring the fishes of alabama key? And the value that it places on chin barbel coloration... what has you thinking something different?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#20 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

The yellow typically has light, white to cream colored, barbels on the lower jaw where the brown has dark colored, brown or black, colored barbels. The entire barbel may not always hold true to this depending on age and condition but the base of each barbel should follow this. If you're into counting rays, yellows have significantly more anal rays than do browns. Yellows typically have 25-28 and browns 22-24. Browns are typically more mottled but as previously stated yellows can be mottled as well depending on populations and habitat.




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