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Labidesthes sicculus?

Started by mattknepley , Sep 18 2013 08:29 PM

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22 replies to this topic

#1 mattknepley

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Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:29 PM

Don't know what else it'd be, but I don't think there's too many records of them quite this far upstream. There were a couple fair-sized schools of them just below the Lake Greenwood dam and Hwy 34 on the Greenwood/Newberry County line in SC. Never seen them before.

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Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#2 Guest_Yeahson421_*

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

I mean, it sure looks like a Brook Silverside to me, but I'm definitely no expert.

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#3 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:11 PM

I don't know your area, but in my waters we call those minners brook silversides, I don't know about all this Labidesthes mumbo jumbo.

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#4 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:36 PM

Well, there are only two choices. The question is, how long did it live? THAT is the determining factor.

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#5 mattknepley

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Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:06 AM

I don't know your area, but in my waters we call those minners brook silversides, I don't know about all this Labidesthes mumbo jumbo.

Well, there are only two choices. The question is, how long did it live? THAT is the determining factor.

Thanks, Yeahson.
I like your waters, Matt- things is easier to p'nunciate.
Irate, I know all the fish died, but I didn't set a stopwatch to 'em. Will be more precise next time...

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#6 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:18 AM

Those are definitely brook silversides. They are more wide spread in the state than you might believe, especially in open waters.

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#7 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:13 AM

Irate is right. I don't care what a fish looks like, if it dies in 13.2 seconds, I call it a brook silverside. Even if it looks like a Cyprinella, if it dies in 13.2 seconds it must have a a silverside in the woodpile.

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#8 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

If you catch Brook Silversides in cool weather and don't touch them, using a cup to gently transfer them to your cooler, they can survive.
Night time is a good time as well. With a headlight wade in shallow water around boat ramps... they will often be free floating at the surface singularily. Lift your dipnet slowly from below and keep them in the water, use a cup to transfer them to your cooler. It works but takes time. I had a school in the cement pond for years.
In Florida / Tates Hell the breeding males are translucent green apple with cherry red noses. Impressive.
Silversides have a unique body structure.

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#9 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:27 PM

This reminds me, has anyone received any updates on the status of Labidesthes vanhyningi? If I remember right, the uniqueness of this form was originally promulgated by some old timers in the 30s with interest in it rekindled 5 years ago or so by the Armbruster lab at Auburn.

Do all the Labidesthes of the South Atlantic-Gulf region develop the impressive coloration of those in Florida described by Casper, or are they more restricted?

Also, thanks for providing a photo that is actually amenable to identification (an increasingly rare thing on this forum).

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#10 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

Have you seen them with similar coloration anywhere else, Casper? Peterson's says that males get the type of coloration that you describe, but I don't recall ever seeing any notable coloration on them. I actually don't run it to them very often. I see them in big lakes here in Ohio more than I do in streams or rivers.

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#11 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

Also, thanks for providing a photo that is actually amenable to identification (an increasingly rare thing on this forum).

AMEN!

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#12 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

We caught them in south Georgia in the Satilla River that looked like that as well. I think it has to do with them coming from very tannin stained water.

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#13 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:18 PM

Fritz's SC Fishes book calls the Atlantic slope & Gulf coastal plain ones L. sicculus vanhyningi (southern brook silverside), and those farther up the Miss/Ohio/St.Lawrence are L. sicculus sicculus, and says that they will likely be given full species status.

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#14 Guest_blakemarkwell_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:14 PM

Thanks, Gerald. Shame on me, I have that book and should've consulted it first.

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#15 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:56 PM

We caught them in south Georgia in the Satilla River that looked like that as well. I think it has to do with them coming from very tannin stained water.

Those south Georgia silversides are awesome. But really Matt, they lived for 13.2 seconds? You must have the touch :-D

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#16 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:19 PM

Well not always Martin. Up to 13.2 seconds would be more accurate. So if the fish dies in 13.2 seconds or less, it is by default a brook silversides or some hybrid of. Very simple very easy. Occam's razor. It is the simple explanation. Don't even need to look at them( though that does speed up the the death process), just pitch the whole net load in a bucket, count to 13, scoop out the silversides, and feed the Lepisosteus. In my waters we call them rod holders. You just take a danged ole gar, jam his beak down in the sand, cut a slot in his tail, rest your rod in said slot, crack a Budwieser, make lots of noise, and leave your empty tub of nightcrawlers or chicken livers when you head home in the morning(or whenever the beer runs out).

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#17 mattknepley

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Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:50 AM

Well not always Martin. Up to 13.2 seconds would be more accurate. So if the fish dies in 13.2 seconds or less, it is by default a brook silversides or some hybrid of. Very simple very easy. Occam's razor. It is the simple explanation. Don't even need to look at them( though that does speed up the the death process), just pitch the whole net load in a bucket, count to 13, scoop out the silversides, and feed the Lepisosteus. In my waters we call them rod holders. You just take a danged ole gar, jam his beak down in the sand, cut a slot in his tail, rest your rod in said slot, crack a Budwieser, make lots of noise, and leave your empty tub of nightcrawlers or chicken livers when you head home in the morning(or whenever the beer runs out).

You are referring to the most frustrating of anglers... I can't believe how common they are. That stretch of Saluda River where I netted this gar-bait is public access. And it is heavily fished. And danged if there aren't busted bottles, broken rods, empty bait canisters, hacked up gar, occasional undergarments (always women's for some reason), and miles of monofilament strewn all over. After every visit there, the optimist I am always has to remind the grouchier side of me that for as many people I see fishing there, I have yet to actually see anyone being so disrespectful in person. The mono is the worst. I contacted the SC dnr to see if they are still providing mono recycling tubes. That was a couple weeks ago; haven't heard back yet. If it turns out they are, I'll see if the power company (the Lake Greenwood dam provides hydroelectricity) minds me putting up about 237 of them...

P.S. Thanks, all, for the id confirmations!

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

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#18 Guest_NateTessler13_*

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:04 AM

Have you seen them with similar coloration anywhere else, Casper? Peterson's says that males get the type of coloration that you describe, but I don't recall ever seeing any notable coloration on them. I actually don't run it to them very often. I see them in big lakes here in Ohio more than I do in streams or rivers.

Here's one from Florida:
http://gallery.nanfa...09_ NT.jpg.html

and one from up north:
http://gallery.nanfa...09_ NT.jpg.html

Also, as Casper mentioned, if handled carefully brook silversides can survive the trip home and live in an aquarium for years. I remember collecting several in the Maumee River in fall and transferring them from the net to the bucket without allowing them to actually come in contact with the net. It seems once they hit the mesh of the net, they're toast. I had a school of them live in a planted tank for two or three years.

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#19 Guest_Casper_*

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 07:51 AM

That's a nice picture Nate.
And even more they can be near candy electric... highly impressive, when caught in their prime. I see them like that around Tates Hell and over to the Okeefenokee... beyond that i do not know. Not around here, being Chattanooga certainly.
I wonder what the Florida Collector Guide Guys say about the whole of FL? I suspect they would all be the sub species that presents the candy apple green males.
Hum... i wonder if the new Peterson's makes any mention of this?