Hi, I'm an experienced fishkeeper (exotics,) and I'm also in a garden and local sustainability club. We were thinking of setting up a micro aquaponics display at the local elementary school, and I figured I'd look into using local fish, since that would also be educational. The best way to get local fish, I figured, was to look up allowed baitfish and hit the local bait shops. This is the list that I found online.
My question is which of these fish would be ok in such a small setup? The filtration will be a combination of terrestrial plants and bacteria in the plants' substrate (I plan to plant them directly into foam like this rather than float pots.) Water movement will be accomplished with an uplift tube and returned via an overflow from the grow plate like this setup. Water flow won't be very high, and oxygenation will probably be only typical for a tank with a small power filter. The tank will have a heater, mostly to prevent temperature swings.
Are any of these fish suitable (in other words, small and hardy?) If there are several that are, which are typically the prettiest? I was looking at Northern Redbelly Dace.
Thanks!
Which, if any, of these NH baitfish would be suitable in a 10 gal aquaponics tank for a classroom?
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, Oct 22 2013 05:09 PM
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#2
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:17 PM
Pumpkinseeds and sunfish are pretty. And hardy. I'd try those. Easily attainable by hook and line.
If you're looking for schooling, dace and shiners, but they are harder to find.
Goldfish (non-native,I know) are cheap, easy, and colorful. Fatheads are cheap and easy. Musquitofish or fatheads?
You could try small chubs, maybe crayfish if they wouldn't be a threat to plants.
If you're looking for schooling, dace and shiners, but they are harder to find.
Goldfish (non-native,I know) are cheap, easy, and colorful. Fatheads are cheap and easy. Musquitofish or fatheads?
You could try small chubs, maybe crayfish if they wouldn't be a threat to plants.
Edited by Gavinswildlife, 22 October 2013 - 05:23 PM.
#3
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:21 PM
Any Centrarchid will grow far too large for a 10 gallon. I think Northern Redbelly Dace would be a great inhabitant.
#4
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:29 PM
I think they only want ones from the list, Gavin. If so, I'd recommend schools of emerald shiners, northern redbelly dace, or blacknose dace. They don't have extremely bright colors except when in breeding condition, but they have nice personalities, are easy to feed, and do look nice when kept happy (emerald shiners have pretty bright green stripes along their length, and redbelly dace and blacknose dace both have black stripes and get red bellies or turn salmon-orange respectively when in breeding condition). By the way, what kind of temperature swings are you looking at? If it's not sudden (say, within a day or so) and really extreme, they'll be just fine even if it gets a little chilly. EDIT: Hmm, the list also mentions Killifishes and doesn't specify any particular species... you might have some cool killifishes over there too. Mummichogs possibly?
#5
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:46 PM
I would avoid bait shops. You would be safer looking at some of our vendors. Bait shops have high turn over of very stressed fish. You may very likely end up with a disease from the get go. Jonah's or Zimmerman's may have something on your list.
#6
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:26 PM
Wow, you guys are fast! Ok, lemme try and address everything so far. I like Pumpkinseeds and other sunfish - people pull them out of the river across the street all the time - but I know they're too big for a 10 gallon tank. And the killifish specified is, I believe, the Banded Killifish or Fundulus diaphanus. It's a small and pretty fish, however, I found one page that said they don't do well in aquariums except when kept by experts.
I'm not too sure yet about temps at the school. The tank will be next to a window for the plants (it can get -15*F here,) and I have to have the teacher ask the custodian about temps during off-hours. I plan to get an Eheim Jager heater, because if they turn the temp down even 10-15*F during weekends or vacation or whatnot, temps in such a small tank will shift almost instantly, as you know. Even if it's never needed, that's better than the kids coming in to a tank full of corpsicles.
I don't need to get a species explicitly from the baitfish list, but I thought that would be the easiest way to narrow species down that are indigenous to New Hampshire and find a local supplier. I actually really like Red Shiners in breeding colors and considered them for my personal 65 gal project coming up, but I settled on Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish. I looked at prices on Aquabid, and they were really expensive to get shipped up here, just from Massachusetts. I found that Zimmerman's site, and the prices are decent per fish, but the total cost is just too much. As usual, the funding for this is coming out of the teacher's pocket, so we need to keep expenses down. I'll be donating/fabricating most of the setup, and I'll probably end up buying the heater, too.
I dunno, I have a billion juvenile platys I could donate, or we could get Danios for a song, however...boring. Petco does have Rosy Reds, but they're in a filthy feeder tank, of course.
Well, I hope that answers any further questions. Just how crappy are the conditions for fish at bait shops, anyway? How much do they cost? I've never been to one. Can't be worse than the feeder tank at a Petco, I'm thinking...
I'm not too sure yet about temps at the school. The tank will be next to a window for the plants (it can get -15*F here,) and I have to have the teacher ask the custodian about temps during off-hours. I plan to get an Eheim Jager heater, because if they turn the temp down even 10-15*F during weekends or vacation or whatnot, temps in such a small tank will shift almost instantly, as you know. Even if it's never needed, that's better than the kids coming in to a tank full of corpsicles.
I don't need to get a species explicitly from the baitfish list, but I thought that would be the easiest way to narrow species down that are indigenous to New Hampshire and find a local supplier. I actually really like Red Shiners in breeding colors and considered them for my personal 65 gal project coming up, but I settled on Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish. I looked at prices on Aquabid, and they were really expensive to get shipped up here, just from Massachusetts. I found that Zimmerman's site, and the prices are decent per fish, but the total cost is just too much. As usual, the funding for this is coming out of the teacher's pocket, so we need to keep expenses down. I'll be donating/fabricating most of the setup, and I'll probably end up buying the heater, too.
I dunno, I have a billion juvenile platys I could donate, or we could get Danios for a song, however...boring. Petco does have Rosy Reds, but they're in a filthy feeder tank, of course.
Well, I hope that answers any further questions. Just how crappy are the conditions for fish at bait shops, anyway? How much do they cost? I've never been to one. Can't be worse than the feeder tank at a Petco, I'm thinking...
#7
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:32 PM
Not fed, overcrowded, Dead fish cloud the water (Worst I've seen). Many manage them better. About the same as Petco. Around here, emerald shiners run 5$ a dozen.
#8
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:37 PM
Wow, that's really sad...
#9
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Posted 22 October 2013 - 09:53 PM
Join NANFA and you'll quickly become an expert, and thus qualified to keep banded killifish. |;>) (They stress easily when first caught, and they JUMP, but otherwise they are not difficult to keep, and are quite pretty if kept under good lighting. The banded is your only NH killifish that does well long-term in freshwater. Most other killies really need a little salt, which you obviously dont want for hydroponics. Any of the small shiners/dace would work. Creek chubs are very hardy, but might grow bigger than you want.
And the killifish specified is, I believe, the Banded Killifish or Fundulus diaphanus. It's a small and pretty fish, however, I found one page that said they don't do well in aquariums except when kept by experts..
#10
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:04 AM
Ah, a fellow New Hampshirite. Welcome to the forum.
For the list of bait species I suggest Northern Red Belly Dace, Blacknose Dace, and Longnose Dace, Theoretically longnopse dace can get slightly big, but I only seen it once in the wild and never in captivity. (mind you, the idea of fish growing to the size of a tank is untrue. or to quote someone (I forgot who) "fish will grow to the size of the tank but who wants a rectangular fish")..
As for banded killifish, you have to worry about "pale death" (fish loses color and dies soon after) from stress during transport. But I find they adapt well to tanks, breed readilly in captivity, eat EVERYTHING you give them (whether you want them to or not), and in my tank (and a few others but not everyones) they turned vicious to other fish included bandeds not a part of the pre-existing school.
I would not recommend bait shops not just for health issues, but most bait shops only have golden shiners, and sometimes white suckers. A few who trap their own from rivers may have some fallfish and common shiner as well. All of which grow fairly large.
Looking at the bait list vs the imported bait list makes me wonder if their is a difference between a creek chub and a northern creek chub.
For the list of bait species I suggest Northern Red Belly Dace, Blacknose Dace, and Longnose Dace, Theoretically longnopse dace can get slightly big, but I only seen it once in the wild and never in captivity. (mind you, the idea of fish growing to the size of a tank is untrue. or to quote someone (I forgot who) "fish will grow to the size of the tank but who wants a rectangular fish")..
As for banded killifish, you have to worry about "pale death" (fish loses color and dies soon after) from stress during transport. But I find they adapt well to tanks, breed readilly in captivity, eat EVERYTHING you give them (whether you want them to or not), and in my tank (and a few others but not everyones) they turned vicious to other fish included bandeds not a part of the pre-existing school.
I would not recommend bait shops not just for health issues, but most bait shops only have golden shiners, and sometimes white suckers. A few who trap their own from rivers may have some fallfish and common shiner as well. All of which grow fairly large.
Looking at the bait list vs the imported bait list makes me wonder if their is a difference between a creek chub and a northern creek chub.
#11
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:56 AM
I will jump in here and agree with Josh. If you want a nice 10 gallon tank... go for the local dace... the blacknose in particular are calm fish that adapt easily to captivity... they only have one issue... they jump, so you need a well covered tank.
But hey, they are your fish from your area, and isn't that part of the lesson too? I think there are a few NANFA members up there... I suggest that some of y'all get out there and volunteer to collect this teacher some fish!
But hey, they are your fish from your area, and isn't that part of the lesson too? I think there are a few NANFA members up there... I suggest that some of y'all get out there and volunteer to collect this teacher some fish!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#12
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:43 AM
I agree with northern red-belly dace. I have kept southern red-belly dace at high densities and they handle it well. They are also easy to spawn and rear. We work with several high schools operating aquaponic systems where the sunfishes have been species of choice although the minnows were considered except they conflicted with plumbing. Keeping fish away from plants is important. Post pictures of how your setup progresses.
#13
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:57 PM
Ok, after reading the suggestions in this thread, here's what I came up with for a plan: instead of a spillway from a smaller tray on top of the tank, I'll get a tray that covers the tank 100% to prevent jumping. I'll just install a little standpipe.
I know I could keep the killifish at home, but the teacher isn't an experienced aquarist, so I think Redbelly or Blacknose Dace seem like the best bet. I drew up a little plan and estimated costs (not including equipment we already have,) and it should be about $60, not including fish. Ouch. Boy, it would be nice to get a local hobbyist to donate/help us catch/sell us inexpensively 5 or 6 Dace! I do have a hospital tank here at home I could keep them in temporarily if someone had to get them to us now during the fall, but I think the actual tank setup will have to wait until after xmas vacation, both for cost and to avoid a new setup being so long without everyday care. It would likely live in the town library during the summer.
BTW, our gardening and local sustainability club is near the seacoast if anyone would seriously be able to help us source some local Dace. My cycled hospital tank is 5 gallons, but I could then put them in my goldfish's 35 gallon hex after a couple weeks of isolation. Or if someone could even point us to a particular fishing spot, the teacher is really one of those go-getters who'd likely try to collect on her own, and I have a super collection of collecting nets from my mom's old GF pond. However, none of us have collecting permits, and our group always does things by the book...
Here's a little drawing of the plan so far. Sorry for the quality, but I "lent" out my drawing tablet to my niece, and, well, you know teenagers...she killed it.
Thanks,
Kristen
I know I could keep the killifish at home, but the teacher isn't an experienced aquarist, so I think Redbelly or Blacknose Dace seem like the best bet. I drew up a little plan and estimated costs (not including equipment we already have,) and it should be about $60, not including fish. Ouch. Boy, it would be nice to get a local hobbyist to donate/help us catch/sell us inexpensively 5 or 6 Dace! I do have a hospital tank here at home I could keep them in temporarily if someone had to get them to us now during the fall, but I think the actual tank setup will have to wait until after xmas vacation, both for cost and to avoid a new setup being so long without everyday care. It would likely live in the town library during the summer.
BTW, our gardening and local sustainability club is near the seacoast if anyone would seriously be able to help us source some local Dace. My cycled hospital tank is 5 gallons, but I could then put them in my goldfish's 35 gallon hex after a couple weeks of isolation. Or if someone could even point us to a particular fishing spot, the teacher is really one of those go-getters who'd likely try to collect on her own, and I have a super collection of collecting nets from my mom's old GF pond. However, none of us have collecting permits, and our group always does things by the book...
Here's a little drawing of the plan so far. Sorry for the quality, but I "lent" out my drawing tablet to my niece, and, well, you know teenagers...she killed it.
Thanks,
Kristen
#14
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:21 PM
The complete cover will aid with temperature management of water so long as you are fighting a lower ambient temperature but might get fish into trouble if going the other way. More than 6 fish will be required to provide nutrient load needed by plants. How will you remove settable solids (SS) from fish culture volume? How much head will the airlift be working against and what is the the actual flow rate desired? Do you have a way to ensure nutrient laden water from culture tank will be uniformly dispersed into the hydroponic section? What are the optimal temperatures for the fish and plants? My favorite question; what is the backup aeration plan that does not require your intervention when it occurs over the weekend?
#15
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:13 PM
The complete cover will aid with temperature management of water so long as you are fighting a lower ambient temperature but might get fish into trouble if going the other way. More than 6 fish will be required to provide nutrient load needed by plants. How will you remove settable solids (SS) from fish culture volume? How much head will the airlift be working against and what is the the actual flow rate desired? Do you have a way to ensure nutrient laden water from culture tank will be uniformly dispersed into the hydroponic section? What are the optimal temperatures for the fish and plants? My favorite question; what is the backup aeration plan that does not require your intervention when it occurs over the weekend?
Well, I'll try to answer what I can at this point, but I do still have some research on the plants' requirement to do. I'm on reddit's aquaponics list, so I can get a lot of info there.
First, inside the tank I plan to put a layer of silicone on the bottom and press gravel into it (what sticks stays,) so it has a dark base for the fish to be comfortable, but it won't ever need vacuuming, kinda like a bare bottom tank. This has worked for me before in a client's non-planted tank. Also to keep the fish secure, I plan to silicone some plastic plants to the bottom of the tank, as well and probably stick in a piece of Mopani driftwood I'm not using in any of my tanks ATM. That should help keep the pH down, too, since our tap water is somewhat base.
I have live plants I could donate, but I think it would just complicate things for the teacher. So tank = no cleaning except glass scrubbing and unknown water changes at this point. (Theoretically, we shouldn't have to do water changes, should we? But this is a tiny system that will doubtless be unbalanced in some way or another, so I assume nothing on that front at this point.)
For both biological and mechanical filtration, I'm counting on the coarse foam substrate I plan to use as a growing medium. I took my cues from the steadyGROWpro page. If it starts to get plugged up, whether with too many roots or with solid waste, the teacher can pull it out and give it a little pluck and rinse, just like any planted power filter. It's going to be some experimentation, I guess, but I get baby Java Ferns rooting in and growing like crazy on my canister filters' foam prefilters like crazy, so that's the idea I was going for, and I've seen photos of setups like that. I think I had an Amazon Sword baby root into one, too.
As far as filtration and oxygenation, do you really think it would be healthy to have more than 5-6 2" fish in a tank that small? Or will the plants really clean the water that well? This is the part where I admit I have a lot to learn, but I'm guessing that like low-tech planted aquariums, it's probably more of an art than an exact science. I know I see larger setups absolutely packed with, to me, an egregious amount of large fish, but then, they also have many, many square feet of growing beds out in full sun. The point of this setup is not to raise either plants or fish to actually feed anyone but just to demonstrate the principles of aquaculture to young children. This is why I could but am not just jumping in and building this over a weekend; it'll probably get set up after the new year.
For water flow, I have several different-size air pumps I can switch around to get the best flow. Head is only 14-15", and I do have pumps that can get a really good flow going with that. I used UGFs for many years, so I just need to know how much flow I need, and I'll be able to deliver. I have buckets of spare parts to build that aspect of the project. I'm thinking I'll need fairly high flow? I'm not going to be scientifically exact, I think, because it's for 2nd or 3rd graders, not high school students. As long as the fish live well and the plants grow, we'll all be happy. I think they're just planning on stuff like parsley, lettuce, and various herbs, which I think the overhanging lamp will help warm up and be perfectly adequate for (it'll also be next to a window with good light.) The fish I think should be ok if I set the heater to 70*F. I gotta check with the NANFA guys on that, though.
"Do you have a way to ensure nutrient laden water from culture tank will be uniformly dispersed into the hydroponic section?"
That part is a little sketchy, but with such a small tray, I think an uplift on one end and a standpipe on the other should be fine. They'd only be about a foot apart.
"My favorite question; what is the backup aeration plan that does not require your intervention when it occurs over the weekend?"
As for the power outage question, that is something I have thought about at length for years. I personally own an AirPod automatic backup pump for my 55 gal fancy goldfish tank, and I have bait bucket battery pumps for my other tanks if needed, but I'm always home. As you surmise, there won't be anyone around to watch during nights and weekends. I'd get an AirPod for this tank in a heartbeat except for the high cost (and the cost seems to have gone up a lot.) I guess maybe we'll just have to take our chances just like anyone else who doesn't have a backup system. The plants will stand in an inch of water, and the fish, well, they're a coldwater species. Unless you have any other suggestions? (hmm, just thought: this is where live plants in the tank might help... I've got wads of Java Fern from a tank makeover that I don't know what to do with.)
Edited by mfskarphedin, 23 October 2013 - 03:18 PM.
#16
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:06 PM
I will jump in here and agree with Josh. If you want a nice 10 gallon tank... go for the local dace... the blacknose in particular are calm fish that adapt easily to captivity... they only have one issue... they jump, so you need a well covered tank.
Jumping can be reduced by adding current through a powerhead or circulation pump.
#17
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:11 PM
If you can feed heavily enough and makeup water is minimal, that should pull pH down.
If stocking density / feed application / nutrient application rate is too low you could ad other nutrients to system for driving plant growth.
Keep solids out of the plant medium once you start pushing system.
With a 10-gallon aquarium where you have good water flow and biological filtration you should be able to support 20 northern red belly dace easily. Such a number may still be low for plants if they grow fast and have a high nutrient demand.
Head I am concerned about is the distance between water level of fish culture tank and where it exits lift tube to enter the root medium. I use air lifts and they can be very demanding with respect to air volume needed to move a given amount of water once head gets above an inch or so. I said inch. Test you airlift now to see how high it can move water with your existing air-supply. You should be able to rapidly determine the relationship between airlift tube length above water and resulting water flow if all other aspects are kept constant. It is a frequent problem for airlifts to come up short with respect to water flow they can deliver. Having intake for air-lift low is good but keep it away from return of standpipe to prevent short circuiting of flow.
If nutrient level low and plant demand is high then proximity to air-lift will increase growth rate.
Airpod is good idea. Backup for me would simply aeration in culture tank independent of airlift in the event of power failure. Ideally it would be a pump that is also separate and powered separately from the pump driving the airlift. I like using UPS units like used for old computers for that purpose. Will save fish but plants will experience in nutrient supply. Keep biomass other than fish and biological filtration out of the culture tank. It can be a reservoir for disease for fish and plants above.
#18
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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:22 PM
I drew up a little plan and estimated costs (not including equipment we already have,) and it should be about $60, not including fish. Ouch. Boy, it would be nice to get a local hobbyist to donate/help us catch/sell us inexpensively 5 or 6 Dace!
This time of year I'd need to use my waders due to cold, but i'd gladly help you catch the dace. Just set up a date/time to meet. I know of one redbelly spot and many for blacknose dace.
#19
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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:23 PM
Or if someone could even point us to a particular fishing spot, the teacher is really one of those go-getters who'd likely try to collect on her own, and I have a super collection of collecting nets from my mom's old GF pond. However, none of us have collecting permits, and our group always does things by the book...
To collect legal baitfish all you need is a fishing licence. (unless you plan to sell them, bait dealing is another licence. and I think professional aquaculture requires another). A one day fishing licence is inexpensive.
#20
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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:57 PM
If you go the wild fish route I suggest you run them through a quarantine setup where you can clean them up before putting them into the aquaponics setup. Once moved into culture unit you disease treatment options will be complicated by the plants.
Edited by centrarchid, 24 October 2013 - 09:59 PM.
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