Hey guys,
The dorm I live in will be temporarily shut down for winter break, spanning from December 21st all the way until January 13th. Annoyingly, we are banned from entering our dorms at this time, considered trespassing if we try. I'm worried about my fishes in the tank there.
Although I could probably get an automatic feeder and light timer (Petsmart gift card was a b-day present) to feed the majority of the fishes and keep the plants alive, the darters are my concern. They have been eating frozen bloodworms, and with one exception they all refuse flake and pellets. I've been struggling to get a custodian or someone to come in and feed them, all I've been able to secure is a single feeding on January 4th. Up to this point, I've fed the darters a cube of bloodworms a day and skipped a feeding once a week. Every once in a while they get live scuds instead. I'm thinking of pouring my whole scud culture into the tank before I leave. What do you guys think? Have any creative ideas of how to get them food in the mean time, or am I underestimating them and they will be okay with that lengthy span of time?
How long without feeding?
Started by
Guest_Orangespotted_*
, Dec 17 2013 07:43 PM
26 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:11 PM
Buy blackworms. They'll stay alive in the tank.
An entire pound (plenty) is $40 including shipping at Eastern Aquatics: http://shop.easterna....sc?productId=1
Timers for your lights are cheap at Walmart. I put all four of my tanks on timers for $12. The lights now click on and off by themselves.
Be careful: once you find out how easy this is, you may keep your tank set up this way.
An entire pound (plenty) is $40 including shipping at Eastern Aquatics: http://shop.easterna....sc?productId=1
Timers for your lights are cheap at Walmart. I put all four of my tanks on timers for $12. The lights now click on and off by themselves.
Be careful: once you find out how easy this is, you may keep your tank set up this way.
#3
Guest_Orangespotted_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 08:44 PM
I've tried introducing blackworms in the past. The darters simply eat them too quickly and are too good at hunting them. I can't get them in that large of amounts either, so they don't really help. 
#4
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:02 PM
Addressing availability: Large quantities are available right on the website I linked to (eastern aquatics) and because it's air mail, you'd get it before break starts.
This is what a pound of blackworms looked like in my 75 gallon tank. The ground is basically solid blackworms.
There is just no way the darters could eat that all in two weeks. Nuh uh.
This is what a pound of blackworms looked like in my 75 gallon tank. The ground is basically solid blackworms.
There is just no way the darters could eat that all in two weeks. Nuh uh.
#5
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:37 PM
To answer your original question; I have to be out of town on work and at least once a month my fish have to go for a week with no food, and they do fine. Obviously, larger fish can take this kind of fasting period better than darters; but if well fed to begin with the darters do OK for 5 or 6 days. I would be so bold as to say that more fish have been killed by over feeding than underfeeding. But I would also say that 23 days is way too much.
The other option is to catch them out of the tank and keep them in a cooler for the duration. With a sponge filter (which you could season starting now) and an air pump, a cooler is really just an opaque aquarium that you can carry. And you could even do water changes occasionally as needed.
The other option is to catch them out of the tank and keep them in a cooler for the duration. With a sponge filter (which you could season starting now) and an air pump, a cooler is really just an opaque aquarium that you can carry. And you could even do water changes occasionally as needed.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#6
Guest_Ken_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:05 PM
I agree with Mike that more fish are killed by over feeding than underfeeding. From my understanding fish can go up to @ 2 weeks without any physical damage but I have never tested that theory. I wouldn't be worried and have let my fish go a week with no harm to them. For your situation though if you can't find a temporary placement for them I'd give them a good (not excessive) feeding before you leave... How well planted is your tank? If you have a good colony of scuds you might want to put a majority in your tank. If you can get blackworms as Erica suggests I'd put them in a dip net and place the dipnet upside down (turning it over just above the gravel) on the gravel. Sure some will crawl out and get eaten but a number of them would get into the gravel. I'd also move (slide) the dipnet slowly across the gravel in intervals to allow the worms more area to "dig in".
Of course you could turn down your thermostat in your room and open your dorm window which would lower the water temperature and slow down the metabolism of your fish also....
Of course you could turn down your thermostat in your room and open your dorm window which would lower the water temperature and slow down the metabolism of your fish also....
#7
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:14 PM
Have you guys ever weighed a darter? They weigh like 3 grams. Let's assume a darter can eat half its own weight in food in a day (quite a feat! I think this is a safety overestimate. I am only able to eat about 5 lbs a day if stuffing myself, much less than half my weight).
Darter: 3 grams = 0.0066 lb
Dozen darters: 12 * 0.0066 = 0.08 lb
Each one eats half its own weight in blackworms every day for three weeks = 0.04 lb/day * 21 days = 0.84 lbs, still not the entire pound of blackworms
They'd be fine. If you feel unsure, 2 lbs is $60. They're not gonna rot; they live in water. No ammonia spike, just lots of little wavy pink worms.
Here's a video of blackworms in my tank. They're not rotting. They're just chilling.
It's the leeches that limit the length of the blackworm colony in the tank to about 2-3 months, something you don't have to worry about because your darters will eat the leeches.
One thing to consider is surface plant cover. If you've got duckweed, I'd remove basically all of it before you go. I left my tank to its own devices over my honeymoon and the floating plants overgrew and suffocated everything. I lost 40 some fish. It was pretty sad
Darter: 3 grams = 0.0066 lb
Dozen darters: 12 * 0.0066 = 0.08 lb
Each one eats half its own weight in blackworms every day for three weeks = 0.04 lb/day * 21 days = 0.84 lbs, still not the entire pound of blackworms
They'd be fine. If you feel unsure, 2 lbs is $60. They're not gonna rot; they live in water. No ammonia spike, just lots of little wavy pink worms.
Here's a video of blackworms in my tank. They're not rotting. They're just chilling.
It's the leeches that limit the length of the blackworm colony in the tank to about 2-3 months, something you don't have to worry about because your darters will eat the leeches.
One thing to consider is surface plant cover. If you've got duckweed, I'd remove basically all of it before you go. I left my tank to its own devices over my honeymoon and the floating plants overgrew and suffocated everything. I lost 40 some fish. It was pretty sad
#8
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:25 PM
Erica, you are right, the blackworm thing will work. But you are not answering the question... you are jumping to your preferred solution.
Do you have any experience to share with fish going for periods of time without eating? I know you keep a lot of fish, not just the Elassoma.
Do you have any experience to share with fish going for periods of time without eating? I know you keep a lot of fish, not just the Elassoma.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#9
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:27 PM
Yeah, I dumped lots of blackworms in. Three months that's all they ate. I noticed one day they were gone, so I had to start feeding the tank again. It's documented in my Elassoma gilberti thread.Do you have any experience to share with fish going for periods of time without eating?
#10
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 17 December 2013 - 11:05 PM
Throw a live food culture in there, open the window to cool the room, and leave.
#11
Guest_Ken_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:03 PM
Thank you Erica for the numbers you presented. I must admit in the 30+ years since I starting keeping darters I have never weighed them and that is quite interesting. I'm curious though as to what type of darter was used for those numbers? Logperch? Iowa darters? Since my Iowa darters are roughly a sixth the size of my Logperch I'd really like to know.
For clarafication, the suggestion I mentioned using the net method was based one the statement that OS does not have access to or prefers not to acquire a large quantity of blackworms.
A couple thoughts OS..... What size is your tank? What's the bio load on your filtration? Is it already heavy?
Even if your bio load isn't heavy, this is just my opinion but unless you have a large system I would not suggest dumping in a pound of anything (living or otherwise). Even blackworms create waste. So too by introducing an excessive amount of food for your darters (and other fish), it will create more waste than "normal" conditions at least initially before your filtration can balance out. And if you were to be as unfortunate as I have been in the past to have a blackworm culture crash it can be a stinky messy situation....
For clarafication, the suggestion I mentioned using the net method was based one the statement that OS does not have access to or prefers not to acquire a large quantity of blackworms.
A couple thoughts OS..... What size is your tank? What's the bio load on your filtration? Is it already heavy?
Even if your bio load isn't heavy, this is just my opinion but unless you have a large system I would not suggest dumping in a pound of anything (living or otherwise). Even blackworms create waste. So too by introducing an excessive amount of food for your darters (and other fish), it will create more waste than "normal" conditions at least initially before your filtration can balance out. And if you were to be as unfortunate as I have been in the past to have a blackworm culture crash it can be a stinky messy situation....
#12
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:21 PM
3 g was for rainbow darter, source "Fishes of Minnesota"
#13
Guest_Orangespotted_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 04:14 PM
Thank you for all your replies, I appreciate the help.
I'll try to describe the tank and situation in more detail, so maybe it'll be easier to decide what I should do:
It's a 29 gallon tank, rather heavily stocked with both fishes and plants. I've gotten away with it so far since the plants are dense and are nutrient hogs: Sago Pondweed, Variableleaf Pondweed, Temperate Hornwort, Nuttall's Waterweed, Red Ludwigia, and more. The fishes that eat flake and pellet are as follows: 2 2" Orangespotted Sunfish females, 2 Blackstriped Topminnows, about 7 Carmine Shiners, 3 Blacknose Dace, 3 1.5" Northern Hogsuckers, and a single large Rainbow Darter. The ones that won't: 2 Banded Darters, a large Fantail Darter, 4 smaller Rainbow Darters, and a Johnny Darter. With the timer I bought, the lights will be on 8 hours a day, and with the food dispenser, a half tsp. of cichlid pellets will be added in the morning (may seem like a lot at once but the minnows/sunfish are voracious and ensures the hogsuckers get some), and about a quarter tsp. at night of flake (maybe... it doesn't seem to work very well with the flake, might just end up being more cichlid pellets instead).
Unfortunately, I can't really try to slow their metabolisms with cold... I'm not allowed to open my window before I leave and the temperature must be set at 70 degrees F daytime and 62 degrees F at night (what it has been at).
Erica: I tried requesting a bunch of blackworms at the local shop for the next shipment (the link you provided looks solid but $60... ouch... I still have my same high school wardrobe if that explains it), but they didn't think they could get them in time... But it gave me a new idea: I got about 15 small ghost shrimp and a whole bagful of various small snails (pocket/Malaysian/ramshorn). Do you think this'll work? I'm holding the potential feeders in a plastic shoebox for quarantine at the moment, and to stuff their guts with fish food. I know the Bandeds will appreciate the snails since they eradicated my former colony, but I'm not certain whether the other darters will be able to take on the shrimp or snails.
Michael: This is good info, 5 to 6 days hmmm... I wonder how quickly the darters will eat the shrimp and snails? They love to pig themselves out on bloodworms.
Ken: These are the darters and a few of the others we collected on the trip! The darters are perky little fellows which are fun to watch, and I'm impressed how well they've held their color. (I'll be sending you another message once finals are over about what I've found as far as places to sample around here; I haven't forgotten!
) Yeah, as mentioned, the bioload's fairly heavy, I hope the shrimp and snails won't throw it off-kilter... that said I think the plants should be able to handle it, I did introduce all of the new fish (essentially everything but the O-spots) at once after I brought them back with no ill effects.
I'll try to describe the tank and situation in more detail, so maybe it'll be easier to decide what I should do:
It's a 29 gallon tank, rather heavily stocked with both fishes and plants. I've gotten away with it so far since the plants are dense and are nutrient hogs: Sago Pondweed, Variableleaf Pondweed, Temperate Hornwort, Nuttall's Waterweed, Red Ludwigia, and more. The fishes that eat flake and pellet are as follows: 2 2" Orangespotted Sunfish females, 2 Blackstriped Topminnows, about 7 Carmine Shiners, 3 Blacknose Dace, 3 1.5" Northern Hogsuckers, and a single large Rainbow Darter. The ones that won't: 2 Banded Darters, a large Fantail Darter, 4 smaller Rainbow Darters, and a Johnny Darter. With the timer I bought, the lights will be on 8 hours a day, and with the food dispenser, a half tsp. of cichlid pellets will be added in the morning (may seem like a lot at once but the minnows/sunfish are voracious and ensures the hogsuckers get some), and about a quarter tsp. at night of flake (maybe... it doesn't seem to work very well with the flake, might just end up being more cichlid pellets instead).
Unfortunately, I can't really try to slow their metabolisms with cold... I'm not allowed to open my window before I leave and the temperature must be set at 70 degrees F daytime and 62 degrees F at night (what it has been at).
Erica: I tried requesting a bunch of blackworms at the local shop for the next shipment (the link you provided looks solid but $60... ouch... I still have my same high school wardrobe if that explains it), but they didn't think they could get them in time... But it gave me a new idea: I got about 15 small ghost shrimp and a whole bagful of various small snails (pocket/Malaysian/ramshorn). Do you think this'll work? I'm holding the potential feeders in a plastic shoebox for quarantine at the moment, and to stuff their guts with fish food. I know the Bandeds will appreciate the snails since they eradicated my former colony, but I'm not certain whether the other darters will be able to take on the shrimp or snails.
Michael: This is good info, 5 to 6 days hmmm... I wonder how quickly the darters will eat the shrimp and snails? They love to pig themselves out on bloodworms.
Ken: These are the darters and a few of the others we collected on the trip! The darters are perky little fellows which are fun to watch, and I'm impressed how well they've held their color. (I'll be sending you another message once finals are over about what I've found as far as places to sample around here; I haven't forgotten!
) Yeah, as mentioned, the bioload's fairly heavy, I hope the shrimp and snails won't throw it off-kilter... that said I think the plants should be able to handle it, I did introduce all of the new fish (essentially everything but the O-spots) at once after I brought them back with no ill effects.
#14
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 04:33 PM
I would recommend adding the snails and ghost shrimp after the lights are out as close to departure time as possible. I would also suggest adding as many scuds as you can without eliminating the culture.
#15
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 04:36 PM
OK, a challenge for Erica, or any other inventive mind: Design a self-dispensing Grindal worm culture that one can set on top of a fish tank, where a small proportion of worms will crawl over a barrier or through a screen or something and drop into the tank each day.
#16
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 05:54 PM
Orangespotted, can you ship your fish to someone else to take care of? I can understand not wanting to pay $40 for a pound or $60 for two pounds of blackworms. I was a poor student, too. The $10 it would cost to ship them to someone else might be more affordable. Maybe this will help? http://forum.nanfa.o...ow-i-ship-fish/ I find that fish usually survive shipping, especially with 3 weeks to recover in between.
Then you could leave a piece of lunch meat or a cocktail shrimp in your tank to keep the beneficial bacteria population up, and do a water change with dechlorinated water to reduce nitrate when you get back.
Then you could leave a piece of lunch meat or a cocktail shrimp in your tank to keep the beneficial bacteria population up, and do a water change with dechlorinated water to reduce nitrate when you get back.
#17
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:16 PM
Would putting a temporary barrier in the tank work? Something with holes big enough to let the food culture migrate through, but not the fish - that would let the culture continue, providing food. It wouldn't have to take up much of the tank, maybe a couple inches from a wall?
My college fish just came home with me in a 5g bucket and spent the non-summer breaks living in rubbermaid bins.
My college fish just came home with me in a 5g bucket and spent the non-summer breaks living in rubbermaid bins.
#18
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:09 PM
Are you driving home for the holidays? Agree with labgirl and my previous post that you should take them with you in a cooler or bin. Might be less stressful than shipping them and cheaper than any of the other options. I would try to leave them in the dark as much as possible and feed them just every 4 days or so.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#19
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:28 PM
I think Michael has a point, if you're going home, take the fish! However, what Gerald proposed is an interesting idea that warrants its own discussion.
Edit: Made a thread for Gerald's proposal: http://forum.nanfa.o...-food-cultures/
Edit: Made a thread for Gerald's proposal: http://forum.nanfa.o...-food-cultures/
#20
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:47 AM
You only need to take the darters home, since the sunnies and minnows will eat pellets from the auto-feeder.
A rubbermaid tub and air-powered sponge filter (cycled) should do fine for a month.
Certain fish in captivity (sunfish especially, but not pygmies) are like cats, and will keep on killing prey long after they've eaten all they can hold. Blackworms might work because they burrow, and dismembered pieces of blackworm stay alive, but with scuds I expect they'd all get killed in the first few days.
Without food, the darters might be still alive after 3 weeks, but very weak and they may never recover. Darters are adapted for eating small amounts all day, every day, unlike fish that eat larger prey and are better adapted for gorge-and-starve cycles.
A rubbermaid tub and air-powered sponge filter (cycled) should do fine for a month.
Certain fish in captivity (sunfish especially, but not pygmies) are like cats, and will keep on killing prey long after they've eaten all they can hold. Blackworms might work because they burrow, and dismembered pieces of blackworm stay alive, but with scuds I expect they'd all get killed in the first few days.
Without food, the darters might be still alive after 3 weeks, but very weak and they may never recover. Darters are adapted for eating small amounts all day, every day, unlike fish that eat larger prey and are better adapted for gorge-and-starve cycles.
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