Today I added 75lbs of pool filter sand to my 75gl tank.I also added 4 bunches of moneywort and two anubias plants attached to driftwood.I do plan to add Camboma and some sort of floating plant in the next couple of days. My HOB has two biowheels and is filled with a phosphate pad on one side and a carbon pad on the other. It also has a mature sponge pad on each side. My son-in law has offered to lend me a large gold gourami to help cycle the tank which I'll return to him if I decide to borrow it all. My Ph is 7.2 and water is slightly hard.
I'm planning on keeping 8 greenfin shiners,4 scarlet shiners and maybe a small group of lined topminnows and/or a logperch.I'm also planning on adding some snails to the tank.Any advice on my set-up or fish selections would be greatly appreciated.Thanks
Setting up my first tank
Started by
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, Dec 31 2013 03:23 PM
17 replies to this topic
#2
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:42 PM
I think your fish selection sounds fine. I also think you can cycle your tank without the gourami. Particularly adding those plants. Search the forum here for "fishless cycle" and I think you will find plenty of information. You should also add your snails as early as possible to let them get established. I think the logperch will enjoy them very much (most darters do).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#3
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:51 PM
"My son-in law has offered to lend me a large gold gourami to help cycle the tank which I'll return to him if I decide to borrow it all."
I agree with Michael. There is no need to put a fish in the tank. Just add fish flakes every day as if you were feeding fish. It's the protein that degrades into ammonia that does the work, not the fish. Ammonia present means that the ubiquitous nitrosomonas bacteria will feed upon it, and excess food will cause an increase in population. The bacteria will increase and increase until they are great in number and able to basically instantly feed upon any scrap of ammonia you give them. That's why when fish flakes degrade in established tanks they seem to skip the ammonia and nitrite steps and the only thing you measure is nitrate. Nitrosomonas eat ammonia and excrete nitrite. Nitrospira bacteria eat nitrite and excrete nitrate. The nitrate is far less toxic than nitrite, which is less toxic than ammonia. More info: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17932709
Plants are an alternative to bacterial filtration. They will eat ammonia as well.
Let me see if I can find what I said before and quote myself. Yes, here it is, from http://forum.nanfa.o...ria#entry113907
"Fish flakes contain protein. Protein has a lot of nitrogen. Proteins degrade in water (whether eaten by fish or not) into ammonia (NH3). Ammonia can kill fish at even 1 part per million. You can deal with ammonia a few ways. Convert it into less toxic nitrate (NO3, it takes 30 parts per million to be toxic for most fish) or let plants eat ammonium and permanently remove it from the water.
Bacterial filtration means the generation of nitrate that must be removed by regular water changes. At first there aren't enough bacteria, so the first 40 days of a tank with no live plants looks like this:
This explains why a lot of people setting up fish tanks for the first time get dead fish after a week. That's about the time it takes for ammonia to start being concentrated. Bettas are an exception. Their labyrinth organ means that even after ammonia burns out their gills, they can still survive by sipping air.
Plant filtration: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
Plants remove nitrogen from the water to make their own proteins and new stems and leaves. Diana Walstad's book, "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" is also very good, although it's a little bit technical. Like 90% of the book is super science-y, but one chapter in the back is 'how this applies to you'. It's worth renting the book from the library to at least read that laymen's term chapter, which explains how plants help fish.
The general idea of plant filtration is that new plant tissue is made from waste. The more new tissue, the more waste removed. No active growth, no waste removed.
Here's more info on all this: http://forum.nanfa.o...in-55-gal-tank/
Most people pick a way or a combination of ways to remove nitrogen from the aquarium. They spend their time fishkeeping either trimming plants or doing water changes or some combination of both once a week."
I agree with Michael. There is no need to put a fish in the tank. Just add fish flakes every day as if you were feeding fish. It's the protein that degrades into ammonia that does the work, not the fish. Ammonia present means that the ubiquitous nitrosomonas bacteria will feed upon it, and excess food will cause an increase in population. The bacteria will increase and increase until they are great in number and able to basically instantly feed upon any scrap of ammonia you give them. That's why when fish flakes degrade in established tanks they seem to skip the ammonia and nitrite steps and the only thing you measure is nitrate. Nitrosomonas eat ammonia and excrete nitrite. Nitrospira bacteria eat nitrite and excrete nitrate. The nitrate is far less toxic than nitrite, which is less toxic than ammonia. More info: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17932709
Plants are an alternative to bacterial filtration. They will eat ammonia as well.
Let me see if I can find what I said before and quote myself. Yes, here it is, from http://forum.nanfa.o...ria#entry113907
"Fish flakes contain protein. Protein has a lot of nitrogen. Proteins degrade in water (whether eaten by fish or not) into ammonia (NH3). Ammonia can kill fish at even 1 part per million. You can deal with ammonia a few ways. Convert it into less toxic nitrate (NO3, it takes 30 parts per million to be toxic for most fish) or let plants eat ammonium and permanently remove it from the water.
Bacterial filtration means the generation of nitrate that must be removed by regular water changes. At first there aren't enough bacteria, so the first 40 days of a tank with no live plants looks like this:
This explains why a lot of people setting up fish tanks for the first time get dead fish after a week. That's about the time it takes for ammonia to start being concentrated. Bettas are an exception. Their labyrinth organ means that even after ammonia burns out their gills, they can still survive by sipping air.
Plant filtration: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
Plants remove nitrogen from the water to make their own proteins and new stems and leaves. Diana Walstad's book, "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" is also very good, although it's a little bit technical. Like 90% of the book is super science-y, but one chapter in the back is 'how this applies to you'. It's worth renting the book from the library to at least read that laymen's term chapter, which explains how plants help fish.
The general idea of plant filtration is that new plant tissue is made from waste. The more new tissue, the more waste removed. No active growth, no waste removed.
Here's more info on all this: http://forum.nanfa.o...in-55-gal-tank/
Most people pick a way or a combination of ways to remove nitrogen from the aquarium. They spend their time fishkeeping either trimming plants or doing water changes or some combination of both once a week."
#4
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:01 PM
Mmm, I forgot to say. API Quick Start used to have a page where they showed a tank during its first 40 days of fish flakes with and without their product. The tank with their product went immediately to nitrate. The tank without their product looked like the graph above. What is Quick Start? It's bacteria in a bottle, and it has a shelf life of two years. You can think of it as being sorta like yogurt: a live culture of bacteria in a sealed container.
Ditto if you have a friend with two aquarium sponges. Buy them a new sponge, take one of their old ones. Keep the sponge wet during transfer to your tank. Both of your tanks will be cycled. Voila. But not my sponge. My live plants outcompete my bacteria for the ammonia, so I tried the sponge exchange one time with someone and it didn't work. Apparently plants are better at getting the food.
Ditto if you have a friend with two aquarium sponges. Buy them a new sponge, take one of their old ones. Keep the sponge wet during transfer to your tank. Both of your tanks will be cycled. Voila. But not my sponge. My live plants outcompete my bacteria for the ammonia, so I tried the sponge exchange one time with someone and it didn't work. Apparently plants are better at getting the food.
#5
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:04 PM
Oh, and, you said you were interested in a logperch. They're really cool fish 
Logperch have a habit of rolling over loose stones and looking underneath them.
Video by William Roston of logperch rolling rocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhBL5nDZsko
But sometimes the rock is not a rock. Sometimes it's a mussel. Here's a video of a logperch being caught by a snuffbox mussel.
Video: http://unionid.misso..._snuffbox_1.wmv
Unio gallery with more videos: http://unionid.misso...ery/Epioblasma/
Article on clampirism: http://bogleech.com/...clampirism.html
Logperch have a habit of rolling over loose stones and looking underneath them. Video by William Roston of logperch rolling rocks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhBL5nDZsko
But sometimes the rock is not a rock. Sometimes it's a mussel. Here's a video of a logperch being caught by a snuffbox mussel.
Video: http://unionid.misso..._snuffbox_1.wmv
Unio gallery with more videos: http://unionid.misso...ery/Epioblasma/
Article on clampirism: http://bogleech.com/...clampirism.html
#6
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:22 PM
I have kept logperch and they do quite well in a larger aquarium (like a 75... they are afterall a rather larger darter). And once they settle in they take even some sinking pellets... especially the ones that fall between the rocks that the others cannot get... flip a stone and find something to eat... it is a real treat to see that behaviour in captivity. I would suggest only a trio in a 75, but I would suggest them as a great aquarium fish!
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#8
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 01 January 2014 - 03:36 PM
The main reason I don't use activated carbon and phosphate remover is because I'm lazy, they cost money, and I found free workarounds. But they can actually be quite useful in planted tanks. Activated carbon removes large molecules from the water. This includes medication after the treatment period's over and you want to remove the remnants of it from the water, alleopathic compounds that plants use to commit chemical warfare on one another, and tannins that come from the wood many people put in their tanks but find yellow water unsightly. Phosphate remover is useful because if you've got too much dissolved phosphate, it can encourage really strange algaes. I had a tank with really intense cladophora algae growth that I think might have been because of high dissolved phosphate.
Do you need them? No. If you pay the money to have them, do activated carbon and a phosphate scrubber hurt plants? Eh, no. I've used activated carbon with no ill effects to the plants. I've got 0 DH water now (effectively nutrient scrubbed) and the plants grow fine.
I never understood peoples' desire to squirt liquid fertilizers in their tanks, because plants grow fine without them. Algae? Mmm. It's a little harder for things without roots to grow well in those sorts of conditions *evil cackle*
Do you need them? No. If you pay the money to have them, do activated carbon and a phosphate scrubber hurt plants? Eh, no. I've used activated carbon with no ill effects to the plants. I've got 0 DH water now (effectively nutrient scrubbed) and the plants grow fine.
I never understood peoples' desire to squirt liquid fertilizers in their tanks, because plants grow fine without them. Algae? Mmm. It's a little harder for things without roots to grow well in those sorts of conditions *evil cackle*
#9
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:05 PM
Good comments Erica. I have 4 tanks, one (75g) has CO2 and most people with CO2 dose ferts to fuel a high growth rate. The other 3 tanks, including my one with natives (55g) are planted but like you I rely on the substrate nutrients as opposed to dosing nutrients. I get the strategy of starving the algae, not bad. What sort of substrate do you like?
#10
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:20 PM
Funny that you ask that Tom. Erica and I have had numerous conversations about substrate that you can probably search for and see us "discuss". One thing we both agree on is keep it simple and keep it inexpensive. But I will jump in and tell you that I have had great success with just dirt out of my back yard. Now here in Georgia that is mostly red clay. But the plants love it and I cap it with a layer of playground sand, which has also proven a benefit in keeping some smaller suckers and other bottom feeders.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#11
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:47 PM
I use pure clay kitty litter. It's nutritious and has a high CEC ( http://www.thekrib.c...rate-jamie.html ), so you don't need to fertilize it. You can put just an inch of it down, so if you're aesthetically opposed to four inches of ground, that can be a perk. It can be a bit dusty if continually disturbed, so if you've got burrowing fish you might want to cap it with a few inches of gravel or sand. But if you rinse it, do a few water changes, or have a finely pored sponge in your filter, the initial dustiness during setup clears within a day. Then you can gravel siphon it like it was gravel. I don't fertilize, and the plants grow really fine roots.What sort of substrate do you like?
I also have respect for:
*soil capped in gravel or sand. Pro: nutrient rich, <$10 for a 55 gallon tank. Con: Very thick, often a minimum of 3 inches deep.
*sand fertilized monthly with Jobes sticks ($1 for 30). Pro: aesthetics, a lot of people prefer sand to everything else. Con: Just silicon dioxide, requires regular fertilization.
*aragonite oolite sand. Pro: No need to fertilize. Con: $100 for my 75 gallon tank, I used 6 inches though (shell dwelling cichlids)
Things I don't like:
*Fluorite or EcoComplete. It cost $70 to fill a 55 gallon tank with these.
*Pea sized gravel. It's just silicon dioxide, no iron, calcium, magnesium, etc. Even if you fertilize it, the size of the rocks prevents fine root growth.
Walmart's pure clay kitty litter is regionally mined. Hardness can vary quiet a lot. The stuff I bought from Walmart and put in my tank in Ohio made the aquarium water 17 DH. It was gray in color. The stuff I bought in North Carolina maintains the 0 DH tap water in the aquarium. It is beige in color. So what you get varies from place to place. It's a good idea to put a tiny bit in a cup of your tap water and see how it changes your pH and DH before deciding it's what's best for your tank. Sand won't change your pH, so in certain areas (like Cleveland, Ohio), the sand + Jobes sticks might be better for low DH setups.
#12
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:53 PM
Funny that you ask that Tom. Erica and I have had numerous conversations about substrate that you can probably search for and see us "discuss". One thing we both agree on is keep it simple and keep it inexpensive. But I will jump in and tell you that I have had great success with just dirt out of my back yard. Now here in Georgia that is mostly red clay. But the plants love it and I cap it with a layer of playground sand, which has also proven a benefit in keeping some smaller suckers and other bottom feeders.
I wonder if the clay is red because of high iron content. That would certainly be a plus to plant growth.
#13
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:01 PM
yes sir that is exactly why red Georgia clay is red... iron content... and I do think that it makes for a good substrate for that reason (along with the fact that it is free from the back yard)
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#14
Guest_tomterp_*
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:01 PM
....
Things I don't like:
*Fluorite or EcoComplete. It cost $70 to fill a 55 gallon tank with these.
*Pea sized gravel. It's just silicon dioxide, no iron, calcium, magnesium, etc. Even if you fertilize it, the size of the rocks prevents fine root growth.
Walmart's pure clay kitty litter is regionally mined. Hardness can vary quiet a lot. The stuff I bought from Walmart and put in my tank in Ohio made the aquarium water 17 DH. It was gray in color. The stuff I bought in North Carolina maintains the 0 DH tap water in the aquarium. It is beige in color. So what you get varies from place to place. It's a good idea to put a tiny bit in a cup of your tap water and see how it changes your pH and DH before deciding it's what's best for your tank. Sand won't change your pH, so in certain areas (like Cleveland, Ohio), the sand + Jobes sticks might be better for low DH setups.
Hey, I see that ninja edit right before I replied!
You probably wouldn't like my substrate, I've got 3 tanks with Amano aquasoil, all black. Love the black look though the snail shells accumulate as white things. It's expensive to be sure but I won't change it out for 6-8 years probably. My native 55 I just have a smaller pea gravel, and some hardy low-light plants (anubias, java moss, etc.)
#15
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:15 PM
I think she is right about the pea gravel... you need to have some substrate under there that the plant roots can get into... of course, anubias does not really root much anyway... seems happy enough with its roots out in the water... but if you want some stem plants (val, or crypts, or micro sword, you will need some soft soil substrate).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#16
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:50 PM
Everything has its perks. If you want black substrate that's only an inch or two thick and can grow groundcover right on it, there's a reason to pay a bit more to get the aquasoil.You probably wouldn't like my substrate, I've got 3 tanks with Amano aquasoil, all black. Love the black look though the snail shells accumulate as white things. It's expensive to be sure but I won't change it out for 6-8 years probably. My native 55 I just have a smaller pea gravel, and some hardy low-light plants (anubias, java moss, etc.)
For me, the real advantage to kitty litter was that it was cheap. I was moving into a new dormitory every fall and moving out every spring. It was much much easier to just drain the tank, scoop up and bag the fish and plants, throw out the clay substrate on the lawn somewhere noone would notice, and move a completely empty tank. Then, when you arrive, go to Walmart and buy a new $4 bag of 25 pounds of ground up, baked clay. Back in college I used $2 paradiso synthetic sea sponges to scrub the dust out of the water. Just wring them out every few hours and it's clear in a day. Then I moved to grad school and bought myself a sink siphon connection, so I was able to fill the tank 4 inches, drain, fill 4 inches, drain, repeat until clear. (The sponges are mildly easier but don't always work and takes time. Fill refill is brute force and always works, especially when your apartment offers free water
)
#17
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 05:18 AM
Over time even pea gravel substrates do fine for plants. Mulm builds up and forms a nice sediment layer for the plants (assuming you don't go gravel vac crazy).
I think liquid and dry fert dosing is nice, and it has it's uses, not every tank can operate on naturaly produced ferts alone. This is especially true as you go higher light /co2 injection.
For substrates, I like to use Saf T Sorb from tractor supply. It's ~$4-$5 for a 40 lb bag, and it's 100% fullers earth. Similar to kitty litter, fluorite, Turface, and oil dri, although seems to be more uniform and less regionally dependent compared to kitty litter/oil dri.
From what I've read, some types of clay are better than others as far as CEC goes, as well as iron content (iron oxide is an obvious visual identifier).
I think liquid and dry fert dosing is nice, and it has it's uses, not every tank can operate on naturaly produced ferts alone. This is especially true as you go higher light /co2 injection.
For substrates, I like to use Saf T Sorb from tractor supply. It's ~$4-$5 for a 40 lb bag, and it's 100% fullers earth. Similar to kitty litter, fluorite, Turface, and oil dri, although seems to be more uniform and less regionally dependent compared to kitty litter/oil dri.
From what I've read, some types of clay are better than others as far as CEC goes, as well as iron content (iron oxide is an obvious visual identifier).
#18
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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:30 AM
For substrates, I like to use Saf T Sorb from tractor supply. It's ~$4-$5 for a 40 lb bag, and it's 100% fullers earth. Similar to kitty litter, fluorite, Turface, and oil dri, although seems to be more uniform and less regionally dependent compared to kitty litter/oil dri.
For my last substrate purchase, I also got Saf-T-Sorb from Tractor Supply. $3.99 / 40 lbs. Darker and browner in color than kitty litter from my local <ubiquitious retail store>, which tends towards light gray, and no wondering if I got one that was unscented. I like it a lot. More importantly, the plants like it too. (Success with plants w/o much effort is my goal.) I don't have any darters in that tank however, so I don't know if they'd love it.
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