Hello everyone! To put it simply; I really want to breed some fish. I have a few spaces open and want your opinions on what to breed. Keep in mind; I will have a 20 long with chiller to use as a wintering tank for whatever I want to winterize and I have a 33 long for riffle species already. I also really want to breed Ellasoma evergladei, but I'm not sure which setup would be best.
Space 1
Dimensions: 46"L x 18.75"W x 30"H
I have a 40 breeder I think I will put here. I think that would be my best use of space.
Space 2
Dimensions: 32"L x 19.24"W x 17.75"H
I'm not sure what to put here. Maybe a few 5.5 gallons?
Space 3
Dimensions: 50"L x 24.5"W x 24"H (Some space removed for filter, as this is below my 33 gallon)
This space I am very unsure about. I'd like to have a sump/refugium for my 33 in here. Maybe I could keep some more fish in there?
Thank you everyone in advance for your suggestions. Can't wait to hear what you have to say!
Breeding Options!
Started by
Guest_Yeahson421_*
, Feb 18 2014 09:12 PM
28 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:23 PM
There are really very few native fish that are 'impossible' to breed (no tank breeding reported). Let's start with the species first and then tailor the setup to them. Name some fish you like. Right now you have more options than I could list in a reasonable time.
#3
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:32 PM
Good point. I'm interested in Ellasoma, Enneacanthus, Pternotropis, Notorus, Esox, Lepomis to some degree, and a lot of other genuses. Honestly, I'm willing to try anything. I'm just kinda looking for suggestions. Legally I can do almost any species other than things native to MN because I will have to be able to get rid of the offspring.
#4
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:39 PM
What fish have you bred in the past?
What live foods have you cultured in the past, do you have now, or are willing to culture?
What live foods have you cultured in the past, do you have now, or are willing to culture?
#5
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:44 PM
I have almost exclusively bred livebearers, other than fathead minnows. I currently have Ramshorns and Least Killies culturing right now, and I plan to quickly have Daphnia Moina, Blackworms, Scuds, and Crayfish (Marbled or C. schufeldti.) I also want to do Vinegar Eels and maybe Grindle Worms.
#6
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:20 PM
Maybe I could try Bluenose Shiners in the 40 if I can ever get my hands on some!
#7
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:25 PM
It might be a good idea to start a few now. Vinegar eels, microworms, moina, copepods, baby brine shrimp, greenwater. They won't be ready to harvest from right away so it's a good idea to start now.I have almost exclusively bred livebearers, other than fathead minnows. I currently have Ramshorns and Least Killies culturing right now, and I plan to quickly have Daphnia Moina, Blackworms, Scuds, and Crayfish (Marbled or C. schufeldti.) I also want to do Vinegar Eels and maybe Grindle Worms.
Aquabid has some good food cultures
http://www.aquabid.c...ction.cgi?foodl
Step one is to get the fry past the smallest size. The first foods are the most important. Right at the beginning is when you lose the most young.
#8
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:26 PM
No offense, but you couldn't. Pretty much nobody has been able to do anything with them except in very large situations and ponds and then it has been rather difficult.
I think that you should start with some things that have been done and kinda "hone your skills" before tackling what is one of the hardest ones out there.
Elassomas are too easy... even I can do it... you should, just so you can sort of check it off your list... but really, it just takes plants and snails and the fish do the rest.
I think Enneacanthus would be cool, there have been some successes, but fewer I think than Lepomis (which you could also do outside in your pond).
I think that you should start with some things that have been done and kinda "hone your skills" before tackling what is one of the hardest ones out there.
Elassomas are too easy... even I can do it... you should, just so you can sort of check it off your list... but really, it just takes plants and snails and the fish do the rest.
I think Enneacanthus would be cool, there have been some successes, but fewer I think than Lepomis (which you could also do outside in your pond).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#9
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:34 PM
I agree with Michael. Pick a species that has a confirmed captive breeding report where the young have been raised to adulthood and spawned themselves.Maybe I could try Bluenose Shiners in the 40 if I can ever get my hands on some!
#10
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:37 PM
That's a great point. What do you think would be the best Enneacanthus to try? Would I be able to do Ellasoma in a 5.5? Or a would they need a series of 5.5s?
#11
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:39 PM
A series of 5.5 gallon tanks would be fine. I think that if you rotate them between tanks (for example, five or six tanks, let them spend a month in each), by the time they get back to tank 1 their fry have grown up and are too large for them to eat. Or you could have one main tank and a bunch of 'extra' tanks. Put two pairs of adults in an 'extra' tank for a month, pull them back into the main tank, and feed the fry in their own tank.Would I be able to do Ellasoma in a 5.5? Or a would they need a series of 5.5s?
Enneacanthus gloriosus breeding report: http://www.nanfa.org...s/acbspot.shtml
Enneacanthus chaetodon breeding report: http://www.nanfa.org...acbbanded.shtml
Enneacanthus obesus breeding report: http://www.nanfa.org.../acbanded.shtml
#12
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:44 PM
Also, does anyone has any info on Mud Sunfish breeding? That sounds worthwhile and interesting.
#13
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:10 AM
Forget about Esox until you get a bigger tank.
#14
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:15 AM
I couldn't find any info on that species. I agree with Subrosa about the esox.Also, does anyone has any info on Mud Sunfish breeding? That sounds worthwhile and interesting.
Why not try bluespotted?
Reasons:
1) Parents don't take up a lot of space. Robert T. Rosen spawned them in a 10 gallon. http://www.nanfa.org...s/acbspot.shtml
2) Easy to get fry. Robert reports 140 babies http://www.nanfa.org...s/acbspot.shtml
3) Fry grow to adulthood. He got 16 two inch fish, and reports most of the deaths were due to cannibalism, something that you could prevent. http://www.nanfa.org...s/acbspot.shtml
4) Easy to sell. Adult bluespotted sunfish are gorgeous, small, and nonagressive. They could easily be marketed to the tropical fish community. This would be especially true because the captive bred ones appear to be far less shy than the wild caught, so you would be adding value to the community by provided captive bred ones.
What do you think, Yeahson? Bluespotted sunfish?
#15
Guest_Subrosa_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:08 PM
Rainbowrunner was selling captive bred Mud Sunfish on AB a while back.
#16
Guest_Dustin_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:25 PM
What do you plan to do with the offspring? If you want to sell them, I'd go with obesus. Bluespots are commonly available though Aquabid and our vendors. Blackbandeds are less often available but still pretty common. Bandeds are rare and draw a higher price than the other two. This being said, once you flood the market with bandeds, the price will obviously drop so rotating species would be a good idea.
#17
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:04 PM
I think I will go with Bluespotteds!
#18
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:06 PM
yay 
I think you're going to be fine; you don't have to worry about flooding the market. If these were wild caught fish, I would agree that they were competing with the wild bluespots on aquabid. But these are going to be tank bred and will behave very very differently from wild caught. All it takes is a few videos like these to capture a larger audience than just those people looking to stock their pond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnVXXwbIU5U
That sort of video is not possible with wild caught little sunfish. They hide from human faces. Market a product that is both beautiful and outgoing enough to come out of the plants for food, and your buyer pool will expand to include people who have no prior experience with native fish. The number of people who keep fish is the US was something like one in ten people the last time I checked. That is a much much larger market than the number of people who would keep a wild caught native fish.
Here are some tips for setting up your photo tank. I bought one of those hang-on-tank breeder separator boxes for $10 at a pet store. It's a thin clear plastic box. I also bought a shiny tablecloth for $10 on ebay, but you can get them from a party supply store, a fabric store, wherever. This doubles as my tablecloth if I go to conventions, so it serves two purposes. I put the fish in like two inches of water in the little tank. I put a light from one of my tanks over the photo tank, and turn the camera's flash off. Then I take like 50 pictures, import them to my computer, and crop the ones that are in focus. Then I pick my favorite photo. This is the result:
That's might be a photo I use to sell my new yellow jacket endlers, once they breed up a bit more in population.
I'll also take a picture of them in the tank during feeding time to show their full colors (they dull a little in the photo tank). Elassoma especially. Here's a gilberti in a photo tank (compare to video above)
That'll probably happen with enneacanthus too. But it's still useful to have a picture of the fish for sale. I usually take pictures of the actual fish that are going to be in the auction, then separate those into a holding tank until the auction ends. People like to know exactly what they're gonna get. A sprig of plant and a few hours to adjust to the photo tank help them color up. I think that elassoma photo tank was an ipod case so since it was slowly dripping the water out, I was forced to catch the most shocked of shocked faces, as far as fish coloration goes.
This is the same exact fish a little while later in the tank, to show he wasn't injured or anything from the experience.
But yeah, clear photos and good advertising are the key to selling an auction of fish. Especially since most of your market aren't gonna know what a sunfish is. *shrugs* You'll be fine.
How are the live foods going? The breeding report mentions live tubifex.
I think you're going to be fine; you don't have to worry about flooding the market. If these were wild caught fish, I would agree that they were competing with the wild bluespots on aquabid. But these are going to be tank bred and will behave very very differently from wild caught. All it takes is a few videos like these to capture a larger audience than just those people looking to stock their pond.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnVXXwbIU5U
That sort of video is not possible with wild caught little sunfish. They hide from human faces. Market a product that is both beautiful and outgoing enough to come out of the plants for food, and your buyer pool will expand to include people who have no prior experience with native fish. The number of people who keep fish is the US was something like one in ten people the last time I checked. That is a much much larger market than the number of people who would keep a wild caught native fish.
Here are some tips for setting up your photo tank. I bought one of those hang-on-tank breeder separator boxes for $10 at a pet store. It's a thin clear plastic box. I also bought a shiny tablecloth for $10 on ebay, but you can get them from a party supply store, a fabric store, wherever. This doubles as my tablecloth if I go to conventions, so it serves two purposes. I put the fish in like two inches of water in the little tank. I put a light from one of my tanks over the photo tank, and turn the camera's flash off. Then I take like 50 pictures, import them to my computer, and crop the ones that are in focus. Then I pick my favorite photo. This is the result:
That's might be a photo I use to sell my new yellow jacket endlers, once they breed up a bit more in population.
I'll also take a picture of them in the tank during feeding time to show their full colors (they dull a little in the photo tank). Elassoma especially. Here's a gilberti in a photo tank (compare to video above)
That'll probably happen with enneacanthus too. But it's still useful to have a picture of the fish for sale. I usually take pictures of the actual fish that are going to be in the auction, then separate those into a holding tank until the auction ends. People like to know exactly what they're gonna get. A sprig of plant and a few hours to adjust to the photo tank help them color up. I think that elassoma photo tank was an ipod case so since it was slowly dripping the water out, I was forced to catch the most shocked of shocked faces, as far as fish coloration goes.
This is the same exact fish a little while later in the tank, to show he wasn't injured or anything from the experience.
But yeah, clear photos and good advertising are the key to selling an auction of fish. Especially since most of your market aren't gonna know what a sunfish is. *shrugs* You'll be fine.
How are the live foods going? The breeding report mentions live tubifex.
#19
Guest_Yeahson421_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:32 PM
Sounds great! Do I want one pair? A trio? Several? Should I keep them in the 40 Breeder? Should I keep them in 10 gallons and put them in the 40 to breed? Do they breed all year or do they need a temperature trigger?
#20
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:42 PM
Here's the breeding report: http://www.nanfa.org...s/acbspot.shtmlSounds great! Do I want one pair? A trio? Several? Should I keep them in the 40 Breeder? Should I keep them in 10 gallons and put them in the 40 to breed? Do they breed all year or do they need a temperature trigger?
Print it, read it, love it. Wear out a copy of it carrying it around with you and reading it on off times during the day. This is the only instruction manual you have. Robert Rosen is the life raft that might save you from failing at breeding and elevate you to successfully getting hundreds of fry.
Meet the Bluespotted Sunfish
By Robert T. Rosen
reprinted from American Currents, Issue #1 (Fall 1972)
Blue Spotted Sunfish (Enneacanthus gloriosus) are one of the prettiest and certainly one of the more peaceful members of a generally pugnacious family. These pygmies are the often over-looked cousins of the Black Banded Sunfish (Enneacanthus chaetodon), however, the difficulties in keeping and raising these other midgets and some of their larger cousins make the Blue Spotted Sunfish seem like the ideal aquarium species.
The Blue Spotted Sunfish were extremely easy to collect and during a fish kill resulting from a storm which washed pesticides off a farmer's crop into the river, I decided to rescue a few.
These wild fishes are also one of the most timid little creatures you will ever put in your aquarium. They hate the incandescent or florescent aquarium lighting. If the light is turned on in the morning, even if the room is well lit before hand, they will sit motionless and hide until the light is turned off. Therefore, even though the adults are beautiful, resist the temptation to collect them. The one quarter to one half inch fry are the secret to raising the species. They are tough, adaptable, friendly, and will learn to tolerate the overhead light within a few weeks. Also within a very short time, the fry will learn to accept brine shrimp (live nauplii), live tubifex worms, and then some frozen brine shrimp and frozen blood worms. My Blue Spotted Sunfish have never accepted any food that floats, such as any of the prepared flake or powdered foods.
The fry grew slowly, but by the following spring they had turned into two and one-half inch adults. At this time, the familiar breeding colors were prevalent. They had developed none of the fear common to the adults. I decided it was time to attempt breeding a pair.
I set a ten gallon tank aside and left the water to condition for a few days. I made the water slightly acid. Since I used no light or cover with the tank, I left the water four or five inches from the top. Then I "seeded" the tank with live tubifex worms, disconnected the comer filter and attached an air stone. After a few days, a "microworm" type culture developed which could be a first food for the fry. The baby tubifex worms swam through the aquarium and crawled on the glass sides. Next, in went one male and two females--one for good luck. Two days later I observed that the male had claimed territory on one side of the aquarium was busy chasing females behind the disconnected filter which still remained on the other side. I rubbed over the area of gravel that the male was guarding with a small hand net and found eggs. They were small, not nearly the size of killie eggs, but they were still easy to see under a bright light. I then removed the male and two females from the aquarium. I placed a florescent light on the tip and waited. Nothing happened, except a lot of eggs got fungus. A bad first spawn. Nothing new. Two Corydoras cleaned the tank up in two days and then I added more tubifex worms to start another culture. Back into the tank went another male and two females for another try. (This time I added some acriflavine as a fungus preventative).
The male soon set up a nest and I watched him lure the females in to spawn. The touched and waved over the nest in a sensuous dance. The next day the male was again pushing the females out of his territory and into hiding. Examination of the gravel again revealed the presence of eggs and the adults were removed.
Two days later the sides of the glass had a few transparent bodies clinging to them, and in a few days more the whole tank was covered with these transparent bodies. Not even eyes were visible at first, but these developed in about a week. Soon the babies were free swimming. After the first few days their bodies were bulging with the baby brine shrimp which they readily gobbled. After two weeks without a filter in the aquarium, the water started to foul and I felt that the babies had to be transferred to clean water. They were surprisingly adaptable to change and I lost only one out of the hundred and forty-odd babies that I counted.
I now have sixteen two-inch fish left. I lost two or three fish every day for the first month or so, due to the larger fry preying on the smaller ones. I don't have the tank space available which would be required to separate that many fry so that the killing would stop. It might require dozens of aquariums. The remaining sixteen will mature in a few months.
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