. I'm open to other options as well for those who would like to suggest them, thanks for the help guys!
Native(s) for a 10 gallon
Started by
Sean Phillips
, Apr 08 2014 05:53 PM
24 replies to this topic
#1
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:53 PM
Hey guys, around next Tuesday I'm getting more than likely a 10 gallon (20" x 10" x 12") tank and while I still haven't decided what to do, if think I'd like to go with natives since I'm tired of them getting put off. This would be my first time with natives and while a know a good bit about the larger sunfish and ictalurids that won't help me much with a tank this size. The water will be room temp 66-82 and on those extremely rare summer days 84 (doesn't happen often at all). My pH is 7.6 and I'd really prefer not to tamper with it. Now the tank more than likely is going next to my oven but all the heat gets vented out the back not the side, I know this is a terrible place but it's literally the only place left for a tank I have without buying a stand. So the oven may heat the ambient temperature a bit but not much, there is however a stovetop on my oven but I don't think the short periods of time it's on would generate much heat to the nearby environment. Now if possible I'd like to do a smaller sunfish or two. I'd really enjoy breeding but I don't have anyway to separate parents and the fry would have to go in a cooler with a sponge filter. I like Enneacanthus species but heard they need low pH. Another option would be pygmy sunfish since I'm sure I could breed them in it so long as the parents don't instantly eat the fry . I'm open to other options as well for those who would like to suggest them, thanks for the help guys!
. I'm open to other options as well for those who would like to suggest them, thanks for the help guys!
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#2
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:02 PM
This sounds like a bad joke... I suggest that you don't try to house any native fish in such conditions... maybe gambusia, but thats about it.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#3
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:22 PM
This sounds like a bad joke... I suggest that you don't try to house any native fish in such conditions... maybe gambusia, but thats about it.
Hmm, if it's the location I guess I could test the bakers rack in my dining room and see if it could take the weight. If I put it somewhere with stable conditions then what would you recommend?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#5
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:27 PM
um... you could try an algae farm.
Haha! Well I already have one of those going in a 0.25 gallon jar as a decoration
. So no natives at all except gambusia? I thought I saw another thread on here that that a single dollar sunfish or something like that, maybe I was mistaken.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#6
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:59 PM
Pygmy sunfish eat their own fry if left in the tank with them. If you remove a group of adults about a month after you put them in, they will leave behind 50-100 babies.
Two tanks and you can breed pygmy sunfish.
Two tanks and you can breed pygmy sunfish.
#7
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:02 PM
Pygmy sunfish eat their own fry if left in the tank with them. If you remove a group of adults about a month after you put them in, they will leave behind 50-100 babies.
Two tanks and you can breed pygmy sunfish.
I guess breeding is out of the question then
. I barely can find room for 1 tank let alone 2 (without getting a stand).
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#9
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:22 PM
Make ol' 2x4! A nice stand really does not have to be expensive.
That is an option but it's not so much a cost issue it's that I have to put it on the left side of my 75 which is in the center of my family room which isn't a problem to me but my mom thinks "the tank can't go there because the room would be off balance". Who cares IMO but I can't get any more tanks without approval so I have to put it somewhere at least somewhat visually appealing, lol!
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#10
Michael Wolfe
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- Board of Directors
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- North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage
Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:19 PM
Pygmy sunfish eat their own fry if left in the tank with them. If you remove a group of adults about a month after you put them in, they will leave behind 50-100 babies.
Two tanks and you can breed pygmy sunfish.
While this is a series of three true sentences, it is rather misleading. I have housed small groups of pygmy sunfish in a densely planted 10 gallon tank. Juveniles can survive and grow in the tank with their parents. Sure, you will not get a 100 young, but you can maintain a viable population in a small tank.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#11
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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- Guests
Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:00 PM
Unless you're me, in which case they literally ate every last one of their babies and the population dies out of old age.While this is a series of three true sentences, it is rather misleading. I have housed small groups of pygmy sunfish in a densely planted 10 gallon tank. Juveniles can survive and grow in the tank with their parents. Sure, you will not get a 100 young, but you can maintain a viable population in a small tank.
#12
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:30 AM
Could a single dollar sunfish work? I'm looking for something with personality yet won't outgrow the tank, almost an impossible combo.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#14
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:37 PM
You're in PA. If this tank wasn't gonna get cooked, I'd have recommended a stickleback. (no idea on the laws there for them, by the way, but they're neat fish in your area-ish)
I wish it didn't get so hot, if it were up to me my house would never go higher than 76, however those times when it gets really hot are when my dad and I are away fishing or diving on the weekends and my mom opens up all the windows in the house because she doesn't care about heat. How hot can stickles go, I might be able to convince her to a lower "max temp" if it's only by a few degrees?
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#16
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:44 PM
Tropical Fish won't mind those temps.
Getting tired of trops is my point. My soon to be 55 gallon is going to have to put up with those temps as well but people seem to think that sunfish or perch would be fine at them. I'll see what I can do to keep the temps lower.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#17
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:11 AM
They prefer it cold
source: http://www.tandfonli...7.1979.10411374
but survive at 30 degrees C (86 degrees F)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22141889
source: http://www.tandfonli...7.1979.10411374
but survive at 30 degrees C (86 degrees F)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22141889
#18
Sean Phillips
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- NANFA Member
- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:06 PM
I think I'm going with pygmies, there's three at my one LFS now so I think I'll jump at the opportunity. A few last questions though. Would it be ok to put the tank next to the oven, I'd put insulation around it so heat won't radiate to it as fast and I've heard they can go from 60-90 or something like that, plus my oven almost never gets used and the stovetop isn't on for very long when we do use it like every third night. Also, if I'm doing a very, very, VERY heavily planted tank with the plants being my main filtration and doing 60-90% weekly changes would I even need to cycle my tank? I know the bacteria would still need to colonize but it seems like with three less than 1 inch fish in a 10 gallon the bioload won't be high at all until they start to breed at which point the bacteria should already be built up. So can I use plants to take ammonia out plus weekly changes with a fish-in cycle is what I'm saying.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#19
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:38 PM
Quothe Diana Walstad, "Aquatic plants, then, are much more than ornaments or aquascaping tools. They remove ammonia from the water. Furthermore, they remove it within hours (Fig 1, Table 2). When setting up a planted tank, there is no need to wait 8 weeks to prevent ‘new tank syndrome’. (Nitrifying bacteria require several weeks to establish themselves in new tanks and make biological filtration fully functional.) Thus, I have several times set up a new tank with plants and fish all on the same day."
http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
Why perform a water change? To remove nitrate?
Plant the tank, then measure your ammonia and nitrate. See what the numbers are before deciding to do a '60-90%' water change (by the way, no one recommends that large a percentage, not even the bacteria filtration only people. You can shock your fish changing that much of the water at once).
My tanks are all heavily planted, and I feed about a tablespoon of fish flakes around twice or three times a day. When I measure the water, ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, and nitrate is usually the lowest reading. If it's exactly zero, I add more fish flakes or some other protein source to bump it up so it's measurable. Regardless of how long I go in between water changes, nitrate never accumulates above 20 ppm. Diana Walstad writes about doing them twice a year in her book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium".
A rootless plant like ceratophyllum can actually die if nitrate stays 0 ppm for two weeks or so. That's what happened in my 10 gallon elassoma gilberti tank in 2010.
http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
Why perform a water change? To remove nitrate?
Plant the tank, then measure your ammonia and nitrate. See what the numbers are before deciding to do a '60-90%' water change (by the way, no one recommends that large a percentage, not even the bacteria filtration only people. You can shock your fish changing that much of the water at once).
My tanks are all heavily planted, and I feed about a tablespoon of fish flakes around twice or three times a day. When I measure the water, ammonia and nitrite are 0 ppm, and nitrate is usually the lowest reading. If it's exactly zero, I add more fish flakes or some other protein source to bump it up so it's measurable. Regardless of how long I go in between water changes, nitrate never accumulates above 20 ppm. Diana Walstad writes about doing them twice a year in her book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium".
A rootless plant like ceratophyllum can actually die if nitrate stays 0 ppm for two weeks or so. That's what happened in my 10 gallon elassoma gilberti tank in 2010.
#20
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:48 PM
The protein in fish flakes degrades into ammonia in water whether or not the fish flakes are eaten.
Ammonia is NH3, ammonium is NH4, they're in equilibrium and ammonia at 0.43 ppm kills 50% of the population in 72 hours.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....a lc50 scallops
"The 72-h LC(50) for un-ionized ammonia was calculated at 0.43 mg N/L. At nitrite concentrations of 800 mg N/L or higher 100% mortality was observed. The 72-h LC(50) for nitrite was calculated at 345 mg N/L. Nitrate was the least toxic, with 100% mortality observed at a concentration of 5000 mg N/L. The calculated nitrate 72-h LC(50) was 4453 mg N/L."
Nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite, then nitrospira or nitrobacter convert nitrite to nitrate, which has an LC50 10,000 times more dilute than ammonia, so literally each single nitrogen atom is 1/10,000th the toxicity to fish. That's what bacterial filtration is. Their growth rate is slow, the doubling time is long. It takes around 40 days for an aquarium to get a high enough population of bacteria to instantly convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and not leave any ammonia or nitrite hanging around.
Graphs: http://www.apifishca...ience_Sheet.pdf
Plants are rapid. They eat ammonium (which because it's in equilibrium with ammonia, also removes ammonia) in hours. How many hours? Four. Does this depend on the amount of ammonium? Nope. They prefer it over all other food sources, ingest it with their water column tissues (not their roots) and make it gone, regardless of whether it's 0.43 ppm or 43 ppm.
Table 2: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
So, that's ammonia removal in a nutshell. Plants do it better. They respond faster. They'll sit there happily eating nitrate, chilling out with the beneficial bacteria, being friends, but then when an ammonia spike happens (an ammonia spike it would take the bacteria weeks to respond to, in which time you would lose fish lives), the plants immediately switch to eating ammonia and remove it, all of it, in four hours. Plants are amazing and they are the only filtration I use.
My bucket tanks:
http://youtu.be/-uIvjlV6Z38
http://youtu.be/GpcLMyjBWRM
Ammonia is NH3, ammonium is NH4, they're in equilibrium and ammonia at 0.43 ppm kills 50% of the population in 72 hours.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....a lc50 scallops
"The 72-h LC(50) for un-ionized ammonia was calculated at 0.43 mg N/L. At nitrite concentrations of 800 mg N/L or higher 100% mortality was observed. The 72-h LC(50) for nitrite was calculated at 345 mg N/L. Nitrate was the least toxic, with 100% mortality observed at a concentration of 5000 mg N/L. The calculated nitrate 72-h LC(50) was 4453 mg N/L."
Nitrosomonas bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite, then nitrospira or nitrobacter convert nitrite to nitrate, which has an LC50 10,000 times more dilute than ammonia, so literally each single nitrogen atom is 1/10,000th the toxicity to fish. That's what bacterial filtration is. Their growth rate is slow, the doubling time is long. It takes around 40 days for an aquarium to get a high enough population of bacteria to instantly convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and not leave any ammonia or nitrite hanging around.
Graphs: http://www.apifishca...ience_Sheet.pdf
Plants are rapid. They eat ammonium (which because it's in equilibrium with ammonia, also removes ammonia) in hours. How many hours? Four. Does this depend on the amount of ammonium? Nope. They prefer it over all other food sources, ingest it with their water column tissues (not their roots) and make it gone, regardless of whether it's 0.43 ppm or 43 ppm.
Table 2: http://www.theaquari...ical_Filtration
So, that's ammonia removal in a nutshell. Plants do it better. They respond faster. They'll sit there happily eating nitrate, chilling out with the beneficial bacteria, being friends, but then when an ammonia spike happens (an ammonia spike it would take the bacteria weeks to respond to, in which time you would lose fish lives), the plants immediately switch to eating ammonia and remove it, all of it, in four hours. Plants are amazing and they are the only filtration I use.
My bucket tanks:
http://youtu.be/-uIvjlV6Z38
http://youtu.be/GpcLMyjBWRM
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