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lost 1 of my sailfin mollies! 1 other sick ! need advice!


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#1 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

i got 1 male and 3 female sailfin mollies about a month ago. one of the females had a small white speck on her side so i immediately started a 7 day treatment of pima fix and melafix. after 7 days her white spot had grown and started to turn pinkish in the middle of it. she was also getting more lethargic. i did a 25% water change and started a second 7 day regimen. this morning i found her dead and i noticed a small fleck starting on one of my other females. any idea what else i can treat them with to stop this? it looks like some sort of fungus. my temps at 80f. and my waters brackish. i also am a grandfather of 20 babies one of the females had 2 weeks ago. i don't want to lose them all to this bug. any other suggestions for treatment?

#2 Guest_Dustin_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:07 PM

If possible, I would suggest lowering the temperature. Where did the fish come from? If anywhere but Deep South Florida they will thrive at temps in the low 70s. Also be certain they are getting plenty of vegetable matter in their diet. In the wild, these guys eat Mostly algae with the addition of any meaty goodies found In the algae.

#3 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:41 PM

woah. Brackish water normally prevents pathogens from breeding, but a white spot with pink in the middle doesn't sound like anything else. That's crazy rare. Mollies can go full salt. Why not slowly acclimate them to that? It'll kill any freshwater plants in the tank, so if your tank is plant filtered you might want to buy a bottle of API Quick Start ( ifishcare.com/pdf/FINAL_QUICK_START_Science_Sheet.pdf ) to switch it over to bacterial ammonia processing for the moment. The bacteria can handle fresh or salt, so it should be fine during this time period.

How to acclimate them to saltwater depends on who you ask. I can see all of this article http://jeb.biologist.../207/6/905.full which says in the methods section that,
"Seawater was made by diluting Instant Ocean brand salts (Aquarium Systems Inc., Mentor, OH, USA) in dechlorinated Edmonton tap water. Fish [freshwater rainbow trout] were acclimated to 10‰ for at least one week before transfer to a second system containing full-strength seawater (30‰) for at least an additional week before sampling."
So what they did was put them in brackish for a week, then just BAM saltwater. Not sure I'd use that method. But apparently it can be done without killing all of the fish, or at least trout. Considering that your fish are diseased, you might want to give them more time.
Devilishturtles said, "I've heard that a slow drip acclimation for 6 to 12 hours would work fine, and there are people on here that have done it in 3-4 and some who have done it over a few weeks." http://www.aquariuma...ter-101706.html
Here's a multi day example: http://www.fantasyre...read.php?t=2559 Four days to 1.005, ten days to 1.010.

You're gonna need a hydrometer ($10 local pet store) and marine salt, but yeah the change in salinity theoretically shouldn't shock the mollies and should kill whatever pathogen that is.

#4 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:47 PM

I've worked them up to 10 teaspoons of sea salt over 2 months in their 10 gal. tank. the breeder recommended this. don't know if its considered brackish or full salt now. i used plain sea salt instead of marine salt. don't know if this makes a difference. i also have a well established h.o.b. filter and a sponge filter in there so bio. filtration should be ok. got a bunch of hornwort floating around in there still so i guess its at least salt water resistant. should i put more salt? whats the difference w/ marine and sea salt? i thought warmer temps. in the tank will kill the pathogens?

If possible, I would suggest lowering the temperature. Where did the fish come from? If anywhere but Deep South Florida they will thrive at temps in the low 70s. Also be certain they are getting plenty of vegetable matter in their diet. In the wild, these guys eat Mostly algae with the addition of any meaty goodies found In the algae.

these are yucatan mollies from arizona aquatic gardens. I've been feeding them a combo of cichlid flakes and betta crumbles. they love both. the breeder recommended 76-80f as these mollies are more tropical than most. what kind of veggies do you feed them?

#5 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:18 AM

Buy a hydrometer. They're $10 at any pet store. 'Instant Ocean' salt is less expensive for your application than food grade sea salt. Ten teaspoons of sea salt is food sized amount. Look at the 50 pound bucket of Instant Ocean: it took one of those to set up my 150 gallons of salt water. Your water likely isn't even brackish yet. Buy a hydrometer.

Also, I agree about the lower temperature. 70 F stresses fish less than 80.

Hornwort is an enormous nitrogen sucker, and competes with the population of beneficial bacteria, decreasing their number. <- This statement is based on my own experience, where I gave my friend my filter sponge from my heavily planted tank to cycle hers and it didn't work. She got an ammonia spike. My filter was there and set up, but there weren't any bacteria on it. It turns out I was plant-filtering my tanks back before I knew I was.

#6 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:35 AM

10 teaspoons of salt in 10 gallons (1 teasp/gal) is about 1.6 ppt (or grams per liter). Full seawater is around 32 ppt, so your tank is only about 5% sewater salinity. Yucatan mollies can take a lot more salt. I would add a TABLEspoon per gallon (about 5 ppt). Salt kills some kinds of freshwater pathogens. I dont see anything "crazy rare" about a pink sore on a fish in brackish water. There are plenty of diseases that attack brackish and saltwater fish. This one sounds most likely bacterial. Increasing salinity might help cure it, but not always. Depends what kind of infection it is.

One other comment on mollies: There are many species and they are NOT all brackish water fish. Many of the Mexican inland species occur in fresh water that is hard (high Ca+ and Mg+) but is NOT brackish (low Na+ and Cl-).

#7 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:08 AM

thanks for the input guys! ill try more salt , lower the temp and get a hydrometer. these mollies are wild costal water fish so they like the salt according to the breeder. I'm going to contact them to find out what they do in this case also. the fish did arrive w/ the infection from their facility in the first place. once i cure theses guys ill wean them back to minimal salt as i like my planted tanks. thanks again for the input. ill keep you posted on their progress.

#8 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

I dont see anything "crazy rare" about a pink sore on a fish in brackish water. There are plenty of diseases that attack brackish and saltwater fish. This one sounds most likely bacterial. Increasing salinity might help cure it, but not always. Depends what kind of infection it is.

There are very few organisms that are capable of transitioning from full freshwater to full saltwater. If the fish can, this gives you the fishkeeper a great advantage. Transitioning the fish from fresh to saltwater may not phase the fish but might kill the pathogen. There are definitely some nasty critters that will make the transition right alongside the fish (example, hydras) and this technique doesn't work for them. And I'm not claiming to know anything about your particular molly species, just that the genus has some species that are capable of the transition. 'Cause if you can transition the fish, with zero casualties, and completely 100% kill the pathogen without any medication, well, I think that's amazing and super worth mentioning. Mollies and, I hear, even guppies are sorta awesome for that ability.

#9 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:32 AM

Here's a video of my hydras. They came in from material collected near Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and infested my ocean salinity seawater tanks. A while later I gave up on saltwater (because the hydras. The treatment I tried to use to kill the hydras in one tank killed my 70 seahorse colony :(. Levamisole hydrochloride gives hippocampus zosterae seizures and kills them within an hour) and transitioned the tanks to full freshwater. This is a video captured from a tank I had thought was hydra free and had not dosed with any drug, just transitioned straight to freshwater. No acclimation, just drained and filled with fresh. And my tap water is basically RO; it's 0 DH and 0 KH. As you can see in the video, the hydras had no problems making the transition.



So there are certainly some nasties that the fresh to salt or vice versa won't kill. But they're rare. A lot of problem creatures (ha ha ha suck it leeches) can't handle salinity.

#10 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:14 PM

Here's a video of my hydras. They came in from material collected near Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and infested my ocean salinity seawater tanks. A while later I gave up on saltwater (because the hydras. The treatment I tried to use to kill the hydras in one tank killed my 70 seahorse colony :(. Levamisole hydrochloride gives hippocampus zosterae seizures and kills them within an hour) and transitioned the tanks to full freshwater. This is a video captured from a tank I had thought was hydra free and had not dosed with any drug, just transitioned straight to freshwater. No acclimation, just drained and filled with fresh. And my tap water is basically RO; it's 0 DH and 0 KH. As you can see in the video, the hydras had no problems making the transition.

http://youtu.be/o8I9p9woyU8

So there are certainly some nasties that the fresh to salt or vice versa won't kill. But they're rare. A lot of problem creatures (ha ha ha suck it leeches) can't handle salinity.

thats too bad about your seahorses. i thought they were neat! do hydra attack fish directly? luckily i don't have any in my tanks as far as i know but I've seen a few leeches from my mts. the mollies make quick work of them! :biggrin: thanks for all the help once again. good luck with you new project!

#11 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

Oh, this was quite a while ago. I was worried the hydras were eating the baby seahorses. It was supposed to be a breeding setup.

Let us know how your mollies fare.

#12 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:53 PM

thanks again erica! ill let you know how they do.

#13 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 08:09 PM

Don't dump in chemicals just because you see a "spot"!!!! More harm is done by aquarists adding chemicals than is done by waiting and watching.

#14 Guest_Gavinswildlife_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:09 PM

Don't dump in chemicals just because you see a "spot"!!!! More harm is done by aquarists adding chemicals than is done by waiting and watching.


I think this is pretty urgent, one has already died.

#15 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:37 PM

I think this is pretty urgent, one has already died.

Check water quality but add nothing and maybe one dies. Dump in random chemicals without knowing what your doing and everything dies. Me, I net out the one with a spot and move on. That's why I don't own chemicals or test kits but I never have any kind of problems. My mollie colony is 7 years old. It originated from 3 adults collected in Fl. I have moved the colony from salt to fresh and currently back to full salt. I have never added a single drug or chemical.

#16 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:45 PM

I am pretty much with Mike here. These treatment are a lot like chemotherapy. They are usually just below the threshold that would cause mortality. I would use sparingly and specifically. I am not a fan of carpet bombing a whole tank.

#17 Guest_Erica Lyons_*

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:12 PM

"I am pretty much with Mike here. These treatment are a lot like chemotherapy. They are usually just below the threshold that would cause mortality. I would use sparingly and specifically. I am not a fan of carpet bombing a whole tank. "
Salt is not a random chemical. For these estuarine fish changing salinity is just part of their daily life. For the pathogen that's bothering them, it's not. Therefore, it's worthwhile to increase the salinity at a rate that won't phase the mollies but may 100% eradicate the pathogen that's on them. It's the very definition of a natural, non-medication solution. A medication solution would be trying to target bacterial cell wall synthesis, nucleic acid synthesis, protein synthesis, etc.

"I have moved the colony from salt to fresh and currently back to full salt. I have never added a single drug or chemical."
This is likely why you have had no problems. The vast majority of pathogens on the fish would not have survived the transition with them.

#18 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:04 AM

I was referring to all of the seahorses you killed by not doing your due diligence and pouring in random chemicals. Made more sense before you edited your post.

#19 Guest_jacksmelt_*

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:00 AM

well guys the second spot grew bigger even w/ the chemicals and the salt. i lost my second female this morning and she was pregnant. I'm stopping the chemicals, doing a 50% water change and slowly going up to full salinity . i hope this all doesn't kill my 3 week old fry that are in there. they all look healthy. temps at 75f now. contacted the breeder and he told me the magic number is 82f for the treatments and salt to do their thing. i don't think any pathogen could jump to another fish w/ the meds. and salt that in there now could it? don't have a hydrometer yet but my hornwort is starting to die off so my salinity must be getting up there.

Check water quality but add nothing and maybe one dies. Dump in random chemicals without knowing what your doing and everything dies. Me, I net out the one with a spot and move on. That's why I don't own chemicals or test kits but I never have any kind of problems. My mollie colony is 7 years old. It originated from 3 adults collected in Fl. I have moved the colony from salt to fresh and currently back to full salt. I have never added a single drug or chemical.

i thought about netting her out but she was very pregnant so i was reluctant. hopefully the pathogen doesnt go to any of the other fish.

#20 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

I too was referring to the seahorse tragedy. Having worked in 4 pet stores over the years, I have seen many, many many more fish killed by the stress of salt treatments and the rampant snakeoil products pushed by pet stores and internet "helpers", than by actual disease. Most people kill the fish with the treatment and blame the percieved "disease" [99% of time water quality and/or stress].
My success with my mollies has nothing to do with moving them from fresh to salt and back. This was done only twice, at a wide interval and was needed when I moved and lost most of my fishroom space. My mollies thrive and the colony is selfsustaining because I understand the nitrogen cycle and never kill my bugs with chemicals and because I understand the natural history of my charges and give them a healthy stress free environment. And, once every 3 years or so I spot a sick fish, I remove it.

Edited by mikez, 26 April 2014 - 11:20 AM.





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