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Do darters hybridize? Or, the unusual Johnny darter


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#1 Guest_QuoVadis_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:07 PM

Today I found an interesting looking darter. I looked like a Johnny in most ways, but something about the shape, face, and maybe the coloring of the fins seemed a little off to me. It's body and face almost reminded me a bit of my Banded darter, and it was more highly colored than my Johnny darter in my aquarium.

So can darters hybridize like sunfish? I know the chances are probably very slim... Or is this just a highly colored breeding male Johnny? (The pic doesn't capture the color well, he looks washed out in it. The fins were almost a little smokey colored.)

I'll post the pic of him from my phone.

#2 Guest_QuoVadis_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:10 PM

Oh,and he was found in Green Bay, WI

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#3 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:16 PM

Sounds like you captured a nuptial male. Breeding male Johnny darters are actually very striking.

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#4 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:23 PM

Oh now that I see the photo, I am guessing that when you first captured him that he was a bit more hopped up, and that is what threw you. That looks like a Johnny to me. I am sure darter hybridization occurs, but I am yet to see any darter that I thought was a hybrid. Maybe someone more experienced can tell you more. I have seen quite a few hybrid minnows, and many sunfish, but I cannot recall a single darter.

#5 mattknepley

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:25 PM

Oh now that I see the photo, I am guessing that when you first captured him that he was a bit more hopped up, and that is what threw you. That looks like a Johnny to me. I am sure darter hybridization occurs, but I am yet to see any darter that I thought was a hybrid. Maybe someone more experienced can tell you more. I have seen quite a few hybrid minnows, and many sunfish, but I cannot recall a single darter.

Oh now that I see the photo, I am guessing that when you first captured him that he was a bit more hopped up, and that is what threw you. That looks like a Johnny to me. I am sure darter hybridization occurs, but I am yet to see any darter that I thought was a hybrid. Maybe someone more experienced can tell you more. I have seen quite a few hybrid minnows, and many sunfish, but I cannot recall a single darter.

He's so fine he made that lady-johnny swoon; look at her, she's rolled over, passed out!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#6 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 09:52 PM

Hard to smoke a cigarette underwater though, huh Matt?

#7 Guest_QuoVadis_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:23 PM

Skipjack, yes he looked a lot like the photo you posted when I first pulled him out, though not quite so dark. I also definitely saw some gravid females. How do you get them to breed in your tank?

#8 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:43 PM

People are still working hard with darters to get them to breed in tanks, with limited success. Seems the best success so far has been from taking gravid wild females and nuptial males in the late winter or early spring. I spawned a couple species in my garage, which gets plenty cold in the winter, purely by accident. I was not set up for it, and lost most of the fry. Again, there are others that can probably help you more.

#9 Guest_killier_*

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:55 PM

The only darter hybrid I've heard of is the e. osburni/ e. variatum or was it e. kanawhae? Both being saddle darters.

#10 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:20 AM

Over on the NANFA main page... under publications there is at least one short article on spawning Johnny Darters.

http://www.nanfa.org/ac.shtml

don't be confused by the top of the page talking about American Currents... cursor down and you will get to a group of articles...
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#11 Guest_Uland_*

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:10 AM

I've now encountered a few darter hybrids in various locations. All of these locations would range from "pretty altered" to "very altered".
On a side note, our local E. nigrum display mostly white in unpaired fins.

#12 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:25 AM

I have encountered, rainbow x orangethroat hybrids several times, also a banded x greenside once, and a few tippecanoe x bluebreast. It does occur but it much much more rare than sunfish or minnow hybrids.

#13 Guest_Kanus_*

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:55 PM

I do believe I saw (and CFI agreed) a redline x greenfin last summer, and I talked to a genetic researcher that mentioned squencing nothonotus that looked normal but showed signs on introgression with other related species.




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