Javascript Disabled Detected

You currently have javascript disabled. Several functions may not work. Please re-enable javascript to access full functionality.

NC Convention Cyprinid IDs

Started by Guest_BenCantrell_* , Jun 09 2014 12:58 PM

Please log in to reply

14 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_BenCantrell_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:58 PM

I'm getting very excited about posting my microfishing report for the NC Convention. Lots of cool fish! Before I do though, I'd like to confirm a few IDs.

#1 Redlip Shiner or Saffron Shiner
Location: Brush Creek (36.485759,-81.004966) - Little River --> New River
The sampling data for the site shows redlip shiner as the most common species in 2013. Saffron shiner is not mentioned. That's probably enough to call it a redlip, but I want to make sure they weren't misidentified. I can't for the life of me tell the two species apart.
Posted Image

#2 New River Highland Shiner
Location: Big Laurel Creek (36.443250,-81.613731) - New River
I feel pretty confident that this is the New River Highland Shiner. I'd like to know more about its split from the rosyface / highland / carmine shiners, and what common name is most appropriate. I think I've seen both New River highland shiner and Kanahwa rosyface shiner mentioned. Is there any literature about the split?
Posted Image

#3 Thicklip Chub or something in the Hybopsis genus
Location: Johns River @ Corping Bridge (35.833815,-81.711671) - Catawba River
The idea that a Cyprinella could be so similar to a Hybopsis chub is new to me. Sampling reports show thicklip chubs in the area, and I don't really see any other contenders.
Posted Image

Thanks for the help!

Back to top

#2 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:14 PM

1) Redlip shiner (saffron has a more distinct gold stripe on body & head, among other differences)
2) "Kanawha rosyface" is what the NC-DENR folks are calling it for the time being. pending formal description. Sorry I dont have any further info on how & why it is considered distinct from rubellus and micropteryx.
3) Spotttail shiner, N. hudsonius -- S. Atlantic slope form looks different from northern and Gulf drainage ones, so I'm told.

Sorry we just barely got to see each other there Ben ... would have enjoyed chatting and fishing with you more. ~~ Gerald

Back to top

#3 Guest_BenCantrell_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:32 PM

Thanks Gerald, and I agree - I wish we would have been able to chat more. I admit I have a fishing addiction. If only there was a support group so people like us could receive help. :blink:

Sounds like I'll just have to be patient with the Kanawha rosyface.

I didn't think to consider spottail shiner. You're right, this one looks a bit different from the photos available online of midwest ones. Does someone have a good photo of an Atlantic slope form similar to this one?

Back to top

#4 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:58 PM

N. hudsonius (juvenile) from Cape Fear River basin, Chatham Co NC.
Not a great shot, but it gives an overall impression.

Attached Files

DSC02312-hudso.Rocky1010.ps1.jpg 235.23KB 3 downloads

Back to top

#5 Guest_fritz_*

Guests

Posted 09 June 2014 - 05:18 PM

I agree with Gerald. Spottail - ours are different from Midwest specimens

Likewise with not being able to get to know you better

Back to top

#6 Guest_Casper_*

Guests

Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:40 PM

Ben is offering a unique perspective to NANFA. We are fortunate to have his activities and photos shared with us.
Even though this convention was longer than most it still went by in a blaze of motion. Cool to see the Redlip, i never put my head in the Linville River suprisingly.

Back to top

#7 Guest_BenCantrell_*

Guests

Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:21 AM

Thanks for the kind words Casper!

Derek suggested I take a second look at some of my supposed Tennessee shiners to see if some of them might be telescope shiners. I had difficulty with these two species while fishing in the Clinch last fall, so I'll post those up again as well. Any tips for these two species?

#1 Fishing Creek, KY

#2 Big and Little Laurel Creek, NC

#3 Big and Little Laurel Creek, NC

#4 Clinch River, VA
Posted Image

#5 Clinch River, VA

Back to top

#8 Guest_gerald_*

Guests

Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:25 PM

N. leuciodus has 8-9 anal rays, N. telescopus has 10-11 anal rays. Only photo #2 has countable rays, and it's leuciodus. I think they're all leuciodus (Tennessee) from general appearance, but I have very little (and long-ago) experience with telescopus. Spread fins in a photo tank would be much better for ID use.

Back to top

#9 Guest_Skipjack_*

Guests

Posted 12 June 2014 - 02:42 PM

#3 looks a bit different to me, but I am very unfamiliar with both species.

Back to top

#10 Guest_Casper_*

Guests

Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:00 PM

I am glad to hear someone else has trouble with these 2 species. Telescopes are a bit deeper with a bigger eye. Tennessee's are longer, narrower and have the rectangleish horizonal caudal spot.
But only one turns a True Tennessee Volunteer Orange.

I believe they both share the railroad track line pattern down their sides / lateral line.
Tough call, nice photos.
Dave Neely should be able to assist here.

Back to top

#11 Guest_fundulus_*

Guests

Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:07 PM

I would go with numbers 3, 4 and 5 being telescopus based on a larger eye, and a more sharply defined caudal peduncle spot. 1 isn't as good a view, that one's uncertain, and 2 is probably a tennessee.

Back to top

#12 Guest_Kanus_*

Guests

Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:49 PM

I have my doubts about 5 being a telescope based on how dark that caudal spot is and how cleanly the back scales are outlined (though I see other characters that would support Bruce's diagnosis), but #2 looks like a DEFINITE Tennessee to me, while at least 4 and 5 appear to have a larger eye and the lateral line has a different shape/slope to it.

I was sampling with some folks from TVA this past week in the upper Clinch and one of them mentioned a very useful mnemonic to use on these guys. The two can most easily be differentiated, besides the caudal spot, by the fact that Telescopes have a two rows of melanophores on each scale margin along the back, which makes their scale outlines appear blurry. Therefore: Out-Of-Focus = Telescopus.

I also use the fact that telescopes tend to have a lime-green line on their sides, but it only shows up at certain angles, so you really have to have the fish in hand, and probably have seen a lot of them.

As for your fish from KY, I'm still not sure, but it doesn't look like a Tennessee shiner to me. Can you post a list of the possible notropis?

I think I got you a new species there Ben