After having my first natives for just two weeks they've already jumped to my favorite type of fish. That being said I'd like to try something. I have a 75 gallon (48" x 18" x 20") with a stock of 6 giant danios, 1 striped raphael catfish, 1 growout sailfin pleco, and a pair of cutteri cichlids. I was wondering since I have some room to spare whether I could get another fish for the tank that was native. I was thinking somehting like a single bluegill or a bullhead (bullhead would be a growout) if I was just getting new ones. However, if I moved my cichlid pair could I possibly get multiple sunfish for the tank. I know its not the best to keep natives with tropicals but I've seen people do it with sunfish and native cats hundreds of times successfully.
Here's the tank specs:
Volume: 75 gallons
dimensions: 48"L X 18"W X 20"H
Temperature: 75-76 (I'd be willing to go down to 74)
ph: 7.6
filtration: fluval 406 (maintenanced every 1-2 months)
water changes: I aim for 50% every 1-2 weeks depending on schedule (nitrates never go above 35-40 ppm)
So, I'll definitely be keeping the catfish and danios but am willing to move the cichlid if I must. What would be a good stock of the ones I want to keep and some new natives?
Natives with Tropicals, Can It Work Well?
Started by
Sean Phillips
, Jun 10 2014 11:32 AM
19 replies to this topic
#3
Guest_AMcCaleb_*
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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:55 AM
I'd personally recommend something smaller than the bluegill, like a green or a longear. I'd say aggression on the part of the sunfish would be what you would have to worry about most. Giant danios are quick fish and they might be big enough to coexist with a longear or green but more than likely, you'll eventually start seeing fewer giant danios. As long as you can find a temperature for the natives and tropicals that both can handle well, then it becomes like stocking any other type of tank. You just have to consider size and temperament requirements of the fish. I don't know that I would go for a bullhead just because you already have two types of catfish and the bullhead will probably try and see just how much he can fit in his mouth at some point. But, sunfish are a possibility.
#4
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:04 PM
I've had shiners and dace live happily (best I can tell) for years with small Tanganyika cichlids (Julidochromis, Telmatochromis), and also Enneacanthus sunfishes living with small tetras and barbs. I would keep them apart for awhile at first until you're sure both tropicals and natives are healthy and eating well before putting them together. As long as you pay attention to their needs: water chemistry, temperature, diet, territorial and predatory behaviors, etc it will usually work out OK.
#5
Guest_Erica Lyons_*
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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:26 PM
AMcCaleb has a good point. Be aware of how big bluegill mouths are after they're a few years old. A bluegill went right up to my male longfin betta and ate it in one gulp. It's sorta like mixing oscars or any large tropical fish with other fish: big mouth fish will eat smaller fish. Orangespotted, dollar, and even longear sunfish would all be smaller than bluegill.
#6
Guest_Moontanman_*
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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:30 PM
Blue spotted sunfish or black banded sunfish would be good choices. I mix and match natives and exotics regularly. For many years i had a dwarfed iridescent shark, elephantnose fish, hogchokers, inland silversides, blue spotted sunfish, plecos, and quite a few others in a 125. They all did very well...
#7
Sean Phillips
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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:00 AM
Cool, maybe I'll try to find some Orangespotteds since they're in my local creek to add, I don't think they're big enough to threaten anybody else and I'd guess the cichlids wouldn't even see them as a threat since they're so small.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#8
Sean Phillips
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:27 PM
OK so I took a manual thermometer to my 75 today since the one on the side I thought was reading to high and discovered that the tank is actually 80 F, which is odd sinced my house never gets that warm and the heater is set on 73 F. I assume 80 is to warm for sunfish then so should I just abandon the idea of getting any natives in that tank or will sunfish be fine? Also, if I could still do a sunfish or two but wanted to keep all my current stock (including cichlids, danios, and cats) what sunfish woukd be best, I'd try to find a pumpkinseed.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#9
Guest_Moontanman_*
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 08:50 PM
OK so I took a manual thermometer to my 75 today since the one on the side I thought was reading to high and discovered that the tank is actually 80 F, which is odd sinced my house never gets that warm and the heater is set on 73 F. I assume 80 is to warm for sunfish then so should I just abandon the idea of getting any natives in that tank or will sunfish be fine? Also, if I could still do a sunfish or two but wanted to keep all my current stock (including cichlids, danios, and cats) what sunfish woukd be best, I'd try to find a pumpkinseed.
No, 80 degrees is not too warm for most temperate fishes, many people assume that North American fish equals cold water fish but just because a fish can tolerate cold water part of the year doesn't mean it needs the cold water all the time. Unless you are keeping obligate cold water fish such as trout (and it doesn't always apply even to trout) water temps are not as important as you assume.
Where I live, in the summer water, temps often rise to well above 80 degrees and many tropical fish do not require hot water, most of the fish we keep can put up with water conditions amazingly different than what is assumed to be required.
I commonly keep tropical and NA native fishes together, the most important parameter is to make sure they don't eat each other or out compete each other for food and that is true no matter where the fish come from.
Some NA native fish require a short period of cooler water to reproduce but not all even require that and are quite happy at reasonable temps.
BTW even tropical do better at cooler temps, 68 to 78, keeping them warmer only insures they live shorter lives. Like true cold water fish true hot water fish are not that common and often only tolerate hot water but do not require it...
#11
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:31 AM
I have been mixing and matching since I was a little kid and dumped blacknose dace in my Dad's living room display tank of neons and zebras. That didn't work out well for anyone, but I've had good success since then. Banded sunfish were my favorite local native to mix. Stays small, peaceful enough but feisty enough at feeding time. I also had really good luck with blackbanded sunnies which were very bold and colorful, reminded me of rams. They were a bit more assertive though and got to be a problem if they paired off, just like having cichlids. More aggressive fry chasers too. I always kept my tropical tanks between 70 -75 F, [saving energy, both electric and natural] so temps were not a problem. What intriques me in your case is the giant danios. I love those guys and think they might make a cool mixed school with similar sized shiners or dace.
Edited by mikez, 15 June 2014 - 08:35 AM.
#13
Sean Phillips
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- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:53 PM
I may even try to find an orangespotted sunfish for my 30 tall community since its temp never goes much higher than 78 and averages 76.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#15
Sean Phillips
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- Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA
Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:20 PM
A group of orange spots would look good in your larger tank
Day5FishTanks. Any other native YouTubers on here?
That would look good but honestly I'll be lucky is I can even find one since they have (if I rememeber right) an incredibly small range in PA.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage
#16
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 17 June 2014 - 08:43 PM
As you have discovered, this is technically quite possible. As the dissenter, I must inject a philosophical caveat. Sure, you can keep them together, but why would you? One goes to the pet store and buys tropicals. One collects natives from the wild and studies their habitat and attempts to replicate it. The philosophy of keeping natives is very different from the philosophy of keeping tropicals. While I do still have some pet shop relicts I would never pollute the Tank O' Death with their presence.
#17
Guest_Moontanman_*
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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:51 PM
As you have discovered, this is technically quite possible. As the dissenter, I must inject a philosophical caveat. Sure, you can keep them together, but why would you? One goes to the pet store and buys tropicals. One collects natives from the wild and studies their habitat and attempts to replicate it. The philosophy of keeping natives is very different from the philosophy of keeping tropicals. While I do still have some pet shop relicts I would never pollute the Tank O' Death with their presence.
One keeps fish for many reasons, your narrow view is not shared my many.
#18
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 18 June 2014 - 02:25 PM
Aww. Play nice guys. There are many reasons to keep fish. Some may like tropicals, and see fit to keep both natives and tropicals together. I am not one of those. I still have too much to learn about natives, before I even mess with tropical fish, so I am a bit biased. But there is room for all, and no sense in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Some tropicals probably work very well with natives, so let's keep hearing about your wins and losses.
Remember though that this is a North American native forum, so we will only allow tropical fish talk if it also pertains to native fish. I think it is also appropriate if we discuss easy to breed tropical fish or invertebrates for use as feeders. Convict cichlids as feeders for example. Beyond housing them together, and raising them for a purpose benefiting our natives, we need to stop there, and take that to a tropical forum.
So quit being a nationalist Martin. American flagfish are not superior to Chinese algae eaters.
Remember though that this is a North American native forum, so we will only allow tropical fish talk if it also pertains to native fish. I think it is also appropriate if we discuss easy to breed tropical fish or invertebrates for use as feeders. Convict cichlids as feeders for example. Beyond housing them together, and raising them for a purpose benefiting our natives, we need to stop there, and take that to a tropical forum.
So quit being a nationalist Martin. American flagfish are not superior to Chinese algae eaters.
#19
Guest_exasperatus2002_*
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Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:53 PM
I have hill stream loaches, bristle nose pleco, Serpae & red eye tetras in with my natives. I have bnd, long nose dace, and three types of darters in an unheated 55 gallon.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
#20
Guest_Irate Mormon_*
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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:45 AM
Narrow and Deep, Moon. Narrow and deep. But first, I simply must insist that you read Walter Adey's "Dynamic Aquaria, Building Living Ecosystems", lest I treat you as an ignorant rube. Charts, graphs, and youtube videos to follow...
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