Can this product, http://www.apifishca...19#.U5uXo5RdX_F (API Algaefix, DIMETHYLIMINOETHYLENE DICHLORIDE, ETHOXYLATEM) or this product mixed with Prime, create a lethal environment for fishes? I had a 20 gallon that was very well (four years)established. Stocked below capacity, fed adequately but sparingly, hob filter. Two days ago I treated it with API Algaefix, which has been safe and effective the couple times I have used it, including in this 20 gallon. Yesterday, the water was noticeably cloudy and a whitish scum was developing on a floating plastic plant. Did a ~20% water change, and added Prime. I've never had an issue with Prime, and I have used it often. This morning the water was majorly cloudy, but I had no time to deal with it. Got home from work and the water was white soup. Only two fish survived. Lost my swamp darter that I've had for almost seven years. He, and the rest of the fish, died very unpleasant deaths. Eyes were still more clear than cloudy, so they had held on for a while. Their corpses were rigomortised, and their gill flaps and mouths were wide open. Gills had a swollen, but very red, appearance. I broke the tank down, and the algae seemed healthy enough, despite the fishes' trauma. White clumpy scum was everywhere on anything plastic, and in all levels of the water column. When I removed the gravel, one area was congealed in a mixture that best reminds me of a large handful of flour dumped in melted butter. Only it was clingy-er and cemented with the substrate. Took some effort to remove it.
The two chemicals were used in another tank and two outside pools in pretty much the same manner with no ill effects. I'm no professional, but in roughly 20 years of keeping aquariums I have never had a tank crash. Slowly decline to a point of being toxic, yes; but never crash.
Any guesses or graphs? Or is this likely just a stupid WQ incident I should've seen coming, but have been fortunate enough to be ignorant of it up til now?
Catostrophic crash
Started by
mattknepley
, Jun 13 2014 08:07 PM
17 replies to this topic
#1
mattknepley
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:07 PM
Matt Knepley
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"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."
#2
Guest_Doug_Dame_*
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:25 PM
There are some reports (and many more suspicions, at least in my neck of the woods) that herbicides applied by state agencies to control overgrown or nuisance aquatic vegetation have caused fish kills. Not a topic the agencies want to talk about. There are a few published papers describing this. Basically what happens is that a heavy load of plants are killed by the herbicide all at one time, sink, and the subsequent rotting process (and abnormal bacteria load) depletes the water of dissolved oxygen.
Whether that could happen in an aquarium is unknown, and why it might happen on this occasion but not for previous applications is likewise unknown.
But this thread from a Koi board shows that the active ingredient in AlgaeFix, DIMETHYLIMINOETHYLENE DICHLORIDE, is by itself toxic to several species of fish at rather low ppm levels, including AT THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE for controlling algae (or even much lower for some fish species). And apparently it's really intended to be used on ponds, so getting the dosage right for small containers like aquariums could require precise measurements. Sounds like it's not really a good product for aquarium use.
You could trying using a UV filter and rotate it between tanks every few days. Or more vascular plants to outcompete algae. Also, if you are using lights on timers, for say 10 hours a day, I've read that 5 hours on / 2 off / 5 on doesn't bother vascular plants but does handicap algae.
HTH
Doug
Whether that could happen in an aquarium is unknown, and why it might happen on this occasion but not for previous applications is likewise unknown.
But this thread from a Koi board shows that the active ingredient in AlgaeFix, DIMETHYLIMINOETHYLENE DICHLORIDE, is by itself toxic to several species of fish at rather low ppm levels, including AT THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE for controlling algae (or even much lower for some fish species). And apparently it's really intended to be used on ponds, so getting the dosage right for small containers like aquariums could require precise measurements. Sounds like it's not really a good product for aquarium use.
You could trying using a UV filter and rotate it between tanks every few days. Or more vascular plants to outcompete algae. Also, if you are using lights on timers, for say 10 hours a day, I've read that 5 hours on / 2 off / 5 on doesn't bother vascular plants but does handicap algae.
HTH
Doug
#3
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:47 PM
I hate pesticides and herbicides myself, and would almost have to be forced to use them. We used to have a forum member who used hydrogen peroxide with great success as an algaecide. Her name on the forum was "nativeplanter". Might be worth looking at that next time. I don't think she ever had any fish kills with it. Other than that suggestion, I have nothing else.
#4
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:02 PM
I can't help you with any information about the products but I can add that I've had the best success with algea control by using algae itself. If you're into a little DIY project, a mechanism called an algae scrubber controls algae in the tank by growing it outside the tank. It's also the most powerful biological filter I've found. Very sorry to hear about your loss, that'd be a tough one. Best wishes.
#5
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:16 PM
I am curious about how frequently you change water in you tank.
The cure (20% water change) might have been the problem. Sometimes a water change will drop the pH, which will free the ammonia into the water as its most deadly form. The death scene sounds like ammonia poisoning.
The cure (20% water change) might have been the problem. Sometimes a water change will drop the pH, which will free the ammonia into the water as its most deadly form. The death scene sounds like ammonia poisoning.
#6
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Posted 13 June 2014 - 10:34 PM
Re: a pH drop causing ammonia (or other contaminants) to be released ... I've only heard of that happening with activated carbon, where the normal absorption cycle gets reversed. Is there any other scenario where that could happen ?
(I don't know quantitatively how large the risk is, or what ranges of pH could be involved ... but it's why I've never trusted or used any activated carbon. On the rare occasions when I buy a new filter cartridge for HOB filter like an Aqua-clear, I slit open the cartridge and toss out the carbon, unused. I may or may not replace it with some other media such as gravel or small bits of lava rock.)
(I don't know quantitatively how large the risk is, or what ranges of pH could be involved ... but it's why I've never trusted or used any activated carbon. On the rare occasions when I buy a new filter cartridge for HOB filter like an Aqua-clear, I slit open the cartridge and toss out the carbon, unused. I may or may not replace it with some other media such as gravel or small bits of lava rock.)
#7
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 12:42 PM
too hard to speculate, even with the details provided.
Sounds most like ammonia to me as well. Without any knowledge of the product, I'd guess it zapped the already inadequate HOB filter and already stressed fish couldn't take the added stress.
Not sure on the science, but as suggested above, ammonia is reportedly more toxic at (edit: HIGH) pH levels. If fish were already stressed by inadequate filtration, AND the filter got impaired, AND the pH was suddenly lowered, well, not good.
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would add herbicide to an aquarium [sorry original poster]. Algae doesn't kill fish, makes the tank look natural, contributes to breakdown of waste and many fish love to eat it.
My years working in pet stores has really soured me on all chemical additives. My experience behind the scenes shows that most clerks are clueless and push what they're told to push. The managers telling them what push know fully well its snake oil but it's a sale. Plus if the guy's tank crashes, just sell 'em more fish and another bottle of snake oil. Sounds cynical and nobody wants to believe it but this is not speculation, it's personal observation, repeatedly.
Sounds most like ammonia to me as well. Without any knowledge of the product, I'd guess it zapped the already inadequate HOB filter and already stressed fish couldn't take the added stress.
Not sure on the science, but as suggested above, ammonia is reportedly more toxic at (edit: HIGH) pH levels. If fish were already stressed by inadequate filtration, AND the filter got impaired, AND the pH was suddenly lowered, well, not good.
I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would add herbicide to an aquarium [sorry original poster]. Algae doesn't kill fish, makes the tank look natural, contributes to breakdown of waste and many fish love to eat it.
My years working in pet stores has really soured me on all chemical additives. My experience behind the scenes shows that most clerks are clueless and push what they're told to push. The managers telling them what push know fully well its snake oil but it's a sale. Plus if the guy's tank crashes, just sell 'em more fish and another bottle of snake oil. Sounds cynical and nobody wants to believe it but this is not speculation, it's personal observation, repeatedly.
#8
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 03:01 PM
I never had any display tanks, so I am an algae fan, as long as I could see into the tank, it was fine by me. Matt do check out the peroxide threads. I think that will be your best bet in the future. Nativeplanter said that it did not harm any plants except hornwort. Apparently hornwort kind of just fell apart due to peroxide.
#9
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 05:50 PM
speaking of hornwort, I find a tank well stocked with healthy hornwort does not grow algae as bad as similar amounts of other plants.
I always believed it was because hornwort used up the nutrients better but I read an abstract from a paper which suggested hornwort might inhibits algae somehow. Didn't purchase the article so don't know how valid.
I always believed it was because hornwort used up the nutrients better but I read an abstract from a paper which suggested hornwort might inhibits algae somehow. Didn't purchase the article so don't know how valid.
#10
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:12 PM
Yeah, I remember reading that hornwort inhibits algae growth as well. I also think it grows so fast, even with moderate light, that it removes nitrates faster than algae can utilize them.
#11
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:43 PM
There is a lot of chemical warfare that goes on between plants. I don't know for sure about hornwort and algaes, but it makes sense to me.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#12
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Posted 14 June 2014 - 10:26 PM
I think hornwort uses nitrate easier, where the majority of other plants prefer ammonia and most tanks with a conventional filter(bacterial nitrification) are higher in nitrate than ammonia, therefore the excess nutrients in the form of nitrate are used up by the hornwort, thus robbing the algae of nutrients more than a plant that prefers ammonia. This is my simple understanding of it. I could certainly be a little off though. I've got plenty of room for a comprehension gap.
#13
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:04 AM
I think hornwort uses nitrate easier, where the majority of other plants prefer ammonia and most tanks with a conventional filter(bacterial nitrification) are higher in nitrate than ammonia, therefore the excess nutrients in the form of nitrate are used up by the hornwort, thus robbing the algae of nutrients more than a plant that prefers ammonia. This is my simple understanding of it. I could certainly be a little off though. I've got plenty of room for a comprehension gap.
I like it!
That jives with my personal observation, i.e. I have very efficient biofiltration and [although I don't measure], quite sure I have zero ammonia. Yet hornwort grows gang busters, even putting out seeds.
Having no roots and no need for roots also makes the nutrient use right from the water column more efficient.
#14
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:19 PM
I was hopeful and tried to edit the error in my post. Seems it is not possible on this forum.
#15
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:20 PM
"As the PH starts to drop below 7, ammonia begins to convert to a less toxic ammonium. Biological filtration starts to begin to fail once the PH drops below 6.4 which causes ammonium build up. This is ok for the time being because it in a less toxic form, however, this is very dangerous because a sudden upward shift in PH from a long overdue water change will convert the high levels of ammonium into high levels of ammonia."
http://www.aquariace...l=1#post1318068
http://www.aquariace...l=1#post1318068
#16
Michael Wolfe
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:38 PM
I can help you edit a post Nearctic... user edits are only allowed for a very short period of time... like a half hour or something from the time you post... let me know what you want to change and I can do it for you.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin
#17
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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:04 PM
Nearctic sounds plausible to me. A build-up of nitrates can definitely lower the pH, and the subsequent water change can cause a pH fluctuation. What's not clear to me is the cause of the white scum. It sounds like some kind of bacterial explosion, but those usually occur in new setups don't they?
#18
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Posted 17 June 2014 - 09:14 PM
Those two chemicals, when mixed together, create what is called "oxygen destroyer". It is what they used to take out Godzilla.
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