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Proposed darter delisting in PA

Started by mattknepley , Oct 04 2014 09:17 PM

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#1 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 04 October 2014 - 09:17 PM

Everythingfish found an interesting news release from PA Fish and Boat, dated 30 Sep 2014. The top is all about fishing license prices, but the bullets on the bottom have a couple eyebrow raisers. One concerns changing rules to allow stocking of trout in wild trout waters. One is a proposal to change rulemaking to allow delisting of tippecanoe, bluebreast, gilt, and spotted darters.

Here's the link. http://fishandboat.c...-price-dec.html

What do you all make of it?

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#2 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 01:23 AM

Maybe they are unrelated. Many fish here in Ohio are making a comeback and expanding their range. There may be good reason to delist them. I kind of doubt it though. Sounds like PFBC is hurting for money. Lowering the cost of licenses?

#3 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 05 October 2014 - 07:16 AM

Lowering the license price is all about luring more people to purchase licenses. (Like that pun?)

I'm with you on doubting the motivation for delisting. Knowing who's pushing the effort will answer our doubts, I'm sure. Till then, I'll consider the frackin' push against the efforts PA has made within its borders (and the cooperation it has recently given NY) to increase gilt darter populations, and remain suspicious. Even if gilts were doing that well, are all of those darters likely to suddenly have become viable without protection? I'd love to think so, but have my doubts. We need some more PA peeps to weigh in here.

Hoping my suspicions are wrong!

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#4 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 11:54 AM

That notice says nothing about why the Board wants to remove protections on those species, maybe they figure most people wouldn't notice and don't care anyway? It's certainly possible their populations have recovered, no doubt.

#5 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 02:16 PM

I know people don't like it when I'm negative about gov policy, but I suggest those interested look into the de-listing of the spotted turtle in Ma.

Basically, they de-listed the one animal most responsible for slowing or stopping development projects, at the request of the developers. The "data" they used was sighting reports from amateur naturalists who submitted said reports in belief that information would be used for the good of the species.

#6 Sean Phillips

NANFA Member

Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA

Posted 06 October 2014 - 03:41 PM

Thanks for making a thread on this

. PFBC has been battling fracking companies for months now about taking water for wells from streams with endangered or threatened species. No offense to anyone but I just plain have a grudge against most if not all of the gas drilling companies, they don't give a damn about our planet and just want to make money. The PFBC is also desperate on money which is why they think lowering licenses from $20 to $19 will help get them more money because it's cheaper but we all know $1 won't help, I personally think they should raise prices, avid fishermen will understand why and most will be willing to put forth a bit more money, I know I would. Back to my point, the companies are trying to bribe them to delist species and the fish commision doesn't want to do it but they're getting so tight on money they're getting desperate and eventually I have a feeling they might break. I'd like to see that all those darters are doing well but I like others on here am doubtful about that. I signed a petition a few months back in my local fishing club about some bill the federal gov't was trying to pass to allow fracking companies to have the "rights" to endangered species in PA, see how noncorrupt and caring the guys from DC claim they are.

Edited by Everything Fish, 06 October 2014 - 03:43 PM.

Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#7 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 06 October 2014 - 09:09 PM

Caveat; this is merely a late-evening collection of resources from within and without PA. I make no claims at having vetted, or even fully read, any of them. I do think they help provide insight from what I have read, however.

Relevant and possibly-relevant releases from PA F&B and others:

Gilt Darters Return to NY's Allegheny River; American Currents, Summer 2013.
Also,from the bibliography from that article, Koryak, M., P.S. Bonislawsky, D.D. Locy and B.A. Porter. 2011 Gilt Darter range expansion... Journal of the PA Academy of Science 85(2/3): 104-108

Read the discussion section from the very bottom of p.6 and top of p.7, especially the Q & A about brook trout.

http://www.altoona.p...TIMES_final.pdf

Not sure how old, but provides insight into process.
http://fishandboat.c...ngs/207nprp.pdf

PA seems proactive in protecting some species here; both fish and otherwise. Good news, Skipjack is "apparently secure".

http://www.pabulleti...0/40-3/106.html

Scroll down to the diamond darter info and draw comparisons and contrasts to the PA fish in question. Lots of other interesting fish related tidbits in here from the last couple years. Even a couple dam removals for fundulus.

http://www.fws.gov/n...vices/news.html

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#8 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 10:49 AM

Agencies that enact and enforce rare species rules also like to see species delisted or down-listed. It "proves" to their state (or federal) legislators that species protection laws and recovery programs are "working". Delisting/down-listing is one component of building public support for keeping the laws and funding for protection programs. Dunno if that has anything to do with PA's decision, but it happens elsewhere.

#9 Guest_keepnatives_*

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 11:31 PM

Why were those darters listed in the first place? Mostly because they were found in a limited area in north west PA (mostly French creek) edge of range thing I'd guess. Used to get there quite a bit and found all but the Gilt darter pretty abundant. Many of those had disjunct populations over a number of states which if improving in those areas perhaps the edge range issue isn't such a big deal.

#10 Sean Phillips

NANFA Member

Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:18 AM

It really isn't and the PFBC makes a big deal out of species with small natural ranges in the state. They do the same thing with many other species as well including longear sunfish which really annoys me.

Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#11 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:49 AM

It's pretty typical for states to protect critters with disjunct or limited populations within the state. Seems frustrating when you know the species is secure to abundant in the rest of the range. I do understand it though, no one wants to see a species extirpated from their state even if it is secure elsewhere.
My best example from Ma is actually a snake, the black rat snake, which is extremely abundant in most of its range and pretty common in Ct just south of us, not to mention a long time staple in the pet trade. In MA however their range just spills over the state line and they are protected and thus illegal to keep, even captive bred.
Still, as much as I want a pet rat snake, I'd rather they NOT be de-listed as their presence on a plot of land can hold off the bulldozers.

There's a lot of merit in what Gerald says about delisting to show success of protection programs. That thinking can go too far as well. I look to the federal striped bass recovery plan which was so phenomenally successful in the late '80s, early '90s. In order to make the draconian restrictions palatable to the interests who were protesting the restrictions, provisions were made to back off the regs if the population rebounded. Well, it rebounded better then anyone thought and the commercials demanded the regs be reduced which they were. The regulators were all patted on the back and congradulated for an amazing success. Now, in the space of a decade, they have lost much of the ground they gained and we are having a hell of a time convincing those regulators to step out of the glow of their past success and admit what is currently happening.

Yes, I realize I'm talking apples to oranges maybe, but it's food for thoughts I've had for years.

#12 Guest_gerald_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:31 PM

Edge-of-range and disjunct populations can sometimes be key to long-term species survival in the face of climate change, disease, etc. They may also turn out to be new species not previously recognized, or drifting in that direction. It does seem silly to use political boundaries to make biological conservation decisions; everything is "rare" on the edge of its range. But let's not discount the potential importance of those peripheral populations and "evolutionarily significant units". MikeZ makes a good point about delisting a species without providing good "post-protection" monitoring and management.

#13 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:22 PM

I am sure this is exactly what is going on in PA. French creek is certainly a stream worth protecting in the state even if the species are just end of range. I would suspect though that many of these darters that were once only left in French creek are making their way to other good habitat via the Allegheny and Ohio rivers. The good thing is that these are Ohio river tribs, and not lake Erie tribs. I imagine Pennsylvania is having a hard time(due to it's relatively small amount of lake Erie shoreline) competing with New York and Ohio for steelhead fishing. So that pulls these darters out of competition with steelhead, and there is probably legitimate reason to delist them. It is not simply to soften the waters for trout. In these end of range situations it would seem more fruitful to fully protect the waterway, as opposed to protecting species. Glad that Mike reminded me of French creek, and I thought more about it. I had not even considered that it was an Ohio trib, due to the close proximity to the lake.

I imagine that these darters will continue to expand their range as they are in Ohio, which is being proven right now with Brian Zimmerman's work.

#14 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:37 PM

French creek is certainly a stream worth protecting in the state even if the species are just end of range....In these end of range situations it would seem more fruitful to fully protect the waterway, as opposed to protecting species.

You hit on what I believe to be the key - there really isn't a good way to protect the habitat be it stream or swamp or plot of upland. A protected species is often the only thing between the land and the bulldozers. That's what hurt about the spotted turtle example I gave. After they delisted, a whole bunch of stalled development projects suddenly went through. Now we have much less wild land and a lot more McMansions.

Interesting to consider delisting a species which is expanding its range. That is something I have not thought about or experienced around here.

#15 Sean Phillips

NANFA Member

Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA

Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:30 PM

French creek is definitely valuable. It's got plenty of nice darters (at least Ed Bihary told me that when I collected with him locally a while back) and I believe it's one of the few creeks in PA with Fundulus. Assuming he can collect next weekend as he's told me I think I'm going to get some darters in French next Saturday or Sunday, I'll have to be careful to get 150% positive IDs on the darters I get.

Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#16 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 03:54 PM

If Ed is going with you, you should be good. He has seen enough Nothonotus darters to know what is what, then you have the gilt to worry about, which is hard to confuse with anything else except when very small. Might be able to confuse them with juvenile variegates. Oh, and if variegates are allowed to be kept, juveniles are the ticket. They seem to acclimate to aquarium life much better than adults. Say "Hi" to Ed for me.

#17 Sean Phillips

NANFA Member

Allegheny River Drainage, Southwest PA

Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:59 PM

That's good. Will do, don't know why he hasn't been active on here lately. As far as I'm aware things are going well with him. Not to derail this thread but I might talk to him this week about plans and if he's ok with it I might setup a collection trip up there for any folks here that might be interested (we both have dibs on at least 1 Logperch each which is what were looking for before others would take any

). He seems like someone who'd be good with that, the more the merrier!

Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#18 Guest_Skipjack_*

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:19 PM

I know Ed pretty well. Been on a few trips with him. He won't steer you wrong. Gosh I can't imagine you guys not finding logperch as long as you are in a large stream or river. Look at the drop offs at the end of riffles, if the riffles themselves don't produce. Good luck.

#19 Guest_sschluet_*

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:29 PM

I was part of the NY reintroduction, PFBC was gracious enough to allow us to wild collect gilt darters. New sampling gear (mainly electrified Missouri trawl) has shed new light on abundance levels of many darter spp in larger rivers. It allows flowing water to be sampled in that 4 - 10 ft range. In our sampling in the mainstem Allegheny R (PA) we got up to 80 gilt darters in a 2 minute trawl. In NY, the same gear is collecting bluebreasts in many new sites. Although it is likely these fish are more plentiful then once thought, I am still cautious about the intentions. Recall that within the past year PA was going to remove all their State-listed T & E spp.

#20 mattknepley

NANFA Member

Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:11 AM

Glad you chimed in, Scott. The results of sampling water depths that previously have been underrepresented poses some interesting questions. Hopefully they point to better/healthier/more stable populations than previously known. I also wonder if it doesn't help focus more sharply some of our "where do all the (insert stream-dwelling fish here) go in the winter?" questions many of us have. Even with all this new info, it's curious we get back to the motive factor... "Although it is likely these fish are more plentiful then once thought, I am still cautious about the intentions. Recall that within the past year PA was going to remove all their State-listed T & E spp."

Scott- how are those gilts in Olean doing? My family has quite a bit of history in that area, though I haven't been there in decades. I'd love to hear that they make a comeback. Someday in the future I want a couple genealogy-based tanks; one from the Olean area, one from Clinton Co, PA; and one of combined Steuben Co., NY and Tioga Co, PA. Even if I have to substitute gilts from somewhere else, I like the idea of their being represented in the "Olean" tank.

Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."