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Hi All! I'm new here

Started by Guest_junebug_* , Oct 07 2014 07:12 PM

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11 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_junebug_*

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 07:12 PM

Well like the title says, I'm new here

I may be setting up a US native fish tank in the next few months, and it occurred to me that while I know lots about tropical fish, the coldwater varieties are a bit of a mystery to me.

A little background - I've been keeping tropical fish for quite some time, with various small hiatuses (that doesn't sound correct to me but spell-check tells me otherwise) and am back in the game! I breed wild type bettas, wild type Jenynsia Onca, and assorted fancy livebearers. I'm also getting into dwarf African Cichlids and some other small SE Asian fish.

One of my tanks appears to be about to crash due to an unknown disease (again). If that happens, I'm done with the fancy livebearers in it and will be looking to do something a bit more.... adventurous

I was thinking of a US native tank.

Before you panic, rest assured the tank will be emptied, left dry, then sanitized with bleach AND rubbing alcohol. Then a megarinse before I set it up again.

All of my tanks are planted and this one, should I embark on this adventure, will be no exception unless the fish species I keep prohibit planting the tank.

I live in Southern California. Now naturally when I thought of doing a native tank, it occurred to me that a SoCal biotope would be awesome. However I haven't found any fish from the area that are suitable to my tank size (20 gallon long) with the exception of the desert pupfish which is still iffy if we're just looking at overall size. If anyone knows of any other fish that are suitable, I would really appreciate species names. Ideally I would be keeping more than one species, and ideally all species that could reasonably be found in the same river.

Native SoCal fish aside, I was looking at the various sunfish, heterandia formosa, and assorted darters available on the market. And possibly pygmy killifish. I do have one small requirement, that all of the fish be either freshwater or very low end brackish. Not interested in a high maintenance setup or saltwater tank.

So, on to other things. Sunfish: Obviously the easiest choice is a colony of pygmy sunfish. Elassoma gilberti or similar. However as I understand it, these are annual fish? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Of course of all the sunfish species I've come across, my favorite is Lepomis megalotis which gets tooooooo huge for my tank lol. One day, when I have a huge pond, I'm going to need a few pair of these guys. Beautiful fish. Anyway is there a pygmy sunfish or a smaller species with similar coloration?

Darters: I LOVE Etheostoma spectabile (orange throat darter) and Etheostoma edwini (brown darter). Is it feasible to keep a pair of each species in a tank this size? Also I am wondering, are darters benthic fish? Or benthopelagic? Fishbase claims the latter, but they certainly have the wrong shape for a benthopelagic fish. Can anyone who keeps them comment on what area of the tank they inhabit? Anyway, I don't want any particular layer of the tank to be overcrowded, hence the annoying questions.

And lastly regarding stock, would all of these fish get along okay in my 20gL? Elassoma (or other small sunfish) the darters and heterandia formosa? Would pygmy killifish be an acceptable addition?

Okay and now for the biggies: Do I need to heat the tank (I have no AC)? If so, to what temperature? And the real, real biggie - my tap water has an incredibly high pH. Like sometimes it's off the chart on my test kit high. I'm on a well and water quality varies greatly by season and rainfall, which has led me to the use of RO water remineralized to specific pH for some of my more sensitive fish.

Anyway, hi everyone, and sorry for all of the annoying questions

#2 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 07 October 2014 - 07:58 PM

...my tank size (20 gallon long)... If anyone knows of any other fish that are suitable...

Sunfish: Obviously the easiest choice is a colony of pygmy sunfish. Elassoma gilberti or similar. However as I understand it, these are annual fish? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

...my favorite is Lepomis megalotis which gets tooooooo huge for my tank...

Etheostoma spectabile (orange throat darter) and Etheostoma edwini (brown darter). Is it feasible to keep a pair of each species in a tank this size? Also I am wondering, are darters benthic fish?

...Would pygmy killifish be an acceptable addition?

Do I need to heat the tank

Yes, there are a lot of natives that will fit in a 20 long. Yes, you could do a species tank with just a colony of Elassoma. No, they are not annuals, I have had many individuals live in captivity for multiple years.

Check into Dollar Sunfish, they are smaller than longears but nearly as colorful.

Yes, you could put a pair of orangethroat and a pair of brown darters in a 20 long. You could also have a pair of pygmy killis in there. But the killis will not successfully reproduce with darters in the tank.

No, you should never have heat a native tank.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Guest_junebug_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:43 AM

Thanks Michael! I had looked at the dollar sunfish, but I think I'd rather go with pygmy sunfish as they are more colorful. I found a place that sells Elassoma okatie and I'm interested... they are such beauties!

I guess what I was trying to ask was, can I keep all of these fish together? Will they all get along? If I was to get say two pair of elassoma, one pair each of the darters, a trio of heterandia formosa, and a pair of pygmy killies, would that all work together? Or should I leave out the killies or heterandia - or both?

Not to mention I still don't know if they are compatible in terms of pH. And/or what my pH for the tank should be. As I understand it the Elassoma are all blackwater species and prefer a low pH, but I don't know about the others. Haven't come across much care info for them yet.

#4 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:30 AM

Sound like a lot if fish for a 20. But everyone has different husbandry work ethic (I like low tech and low maintenance).

So the all together thing is depending on what you want to do. We have had some conversations here before about Pygmy sunniest and Pygmy killis and it does work, but only for so long because they cannot successfully reproduce with everyone else in the tank.

Darters are effective micro predators. If you leave them out it might work.

Another option is just leave out the orange throats and you almost have a pan handle bio tank (not with okatie but another elassoma)

And I can tell you that the elassoma and leptolucania do not "need" the black water. They do very well in my north Georgia tap water.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:30 AM

you're ahead of the game if you have success breeding tropical. Most of the fundamentals remain the same. Things like nitrogen cycle, aggression, stress, good food, etc, are equally important to tropical and natives, and most issues translate pretty well.

In southern Ca, I'd agree with Michael that you shouldn't heat native tanks [much different from saying "NEVER", I live in Ma and keep Florida natives in heated tanks]. In So Ca, I predict too much heat will be a problem. A room with AC is almost essential.

Also speaking of Ca, while I have no first hand knowledge, what I've seen here suggests Ca. has restrictive laws regarding natives. Be sure to carefully research the laws before collecting.
You can probably purchase natives from other states that are legal there [again, research first], but that takes the best part of keeping natives out of the equation - field trips to collect. Some of us get hooked on the collecting as much as the keeping. Like many here, I still regularly snorkel and dipnet even when I can't or don't want to collect anything, catch and release as it were.

I have no experience with pygmy sunfish but you came to the right place for data. Put aside an evening and search the forum and you'll find reams of data.
The other species should all fit a 20 and be compatible with temperament and H2O requirements.

Edited by mikez, 08 October 2014 - 07:32 AM.

#6 Michael Wolfe

Board of Directors

North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

Mikez is right. Never say never. I just know that most native have more problems being too warm than being too cold. Even my jordanella lived under the ice outside here in GA.

For all the species you are asking about you can keep them all at room temp or even basement temp with no heater.

Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#7 Guest_NotCousteau_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:07 AM

Welcome, and good luck on your new tank. Like Mike said, do not expect anything small to survive around darters. My rainbow darters are incredibly predatory!

#8 Guest_junebug_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:16 PM

Temp range at my apartment is in the 60s during the winter and up to the low 90s in the summer. No AC, but I do have heaters everywhere lol. Summers I just go outside if it gets too hot. However it's only that hot for a few days at a time and I imagine the fish tanks are quite a bit cooler than that, particularly the 20 gallon which is my largest tank. I live at 6000 feet, so even though it's SoCal, we get weather lol.

I was more concerned about water pH than water color. I have no idea what pH North GA tap water is, but I'm guessing it's still readable on an API test kit. Mine literally isn't. I'm pretty sure it's above 10 right now, as the rain/snow season hasn't started. I have even found that some of my true hardwater fish have issues dealing with it, though they are all domesticated ornamental strains so a bit more sensitive than their wild counterparts. A native blackwater tank certainly would be fun, though. I'd have to research native plants - any ideas where I could do that? I absolutely adore biotope aquaria.

I won't be able to do any collecting unless I decide to get some pupfish. The place where they live is actually only a few hours from me. Even then, I have no idea if it's legal to collect them. Otherwise all fish will have to be purchased, as the only streams in my area are dried up and not likely to contain anything but tadpoles anyway. I will of course double check to be sure any fish I purchase is legal to import to California. I'd find it funny that I would be able to import fish from Asia but not Tennessee LOL.

I didn't realize darters were so predatory! That will be fun to watch, at the very least. I'll have to drop scuds in there every once in a while to watch them hunt

I wonder, would an extremely heavily planted tank aid in fry survival? All of my tanks are very heavily planted to aid in water quality maintenance and fry survival rates.

Edit: Speaking of, since some of you do wild collection yourselves, do you find it necessary to treat the fish for parasites? I've had some bad luck lately with pufferfish. Camallanus worms are extremely common in wild caught fish and for those that only eat live food, very troublesome to treat. If you do treat them, how do you do it? Will the fish accept medicated dry food?

Edited by junebug, 08 October 2014 - 02:26 PM.

#9 Guest_NotCousteau_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:55 PM

I don't think anything is going to keep darters from hunting and eliminating fry. Just don't house them in the same tank. They can and will swim up the water column, too. They are not bottom-bound.

#10 Guest_Leo1234_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:47 PM

you can't keep any native fish collected in California. all fish have to be dead on site. You can legally keep natives that are from out of state. I know that darters and dollar sunfish are legal if bought online. If you want to know what fish are legal, I will try my best to awnser.

Edited by Leo1234, 08 October 2014 - 06:49 PM.

#11 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:48 PM

pH above 10? Is that a well? I can't believe public drinking water would be that high. Most of the High pH alarms I've seen in water plants are set to 8.5 or 9.0. pH 10 going out the door would get some people excited.

If that really is what comes out of your tap, you got issues. I don't normally worry about pH with most hardy species. pH above 10 is something I never encountered.

#12 Guest_junebug_*

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:26 PM

Yes, it's a well. I mentioned that

. It is one of three public wells for the town where I live, but as far as I know, water is not processed through a plant. As I mentioned, it varies based on rainfall and season.

I can simply use remineralized RO water for the tank. It's what I use for all of my blackwater fish (I keep three separate species) and one whitewater species that likes low pH. Makes for a cleaner base anyway.