Can someone suggest a good place to report observations on a sunfish that differs markedly from all others I am familiar with? Something we have seen repeatedly in wild has manifested in a larger tank. Normally we breed in smaller tanks where container effects preclude some natural behaviors. This behavior has considerable impact on our ability to raise larvae through metamorphosis. Iit might be of interest to those looking at adaptions of sunfishes to a range of habitats.
Suggestions request for reporting interesting larval behavior?
Started by
Guest_centrarchid_*
, Oct 28 2014 09:33 AM
24 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 28 October 2014 - 04:02 PM
This getting cool seeing larvae act very similar to cichlids where they feed directly off substrate. I have seen spotted bass and members of rockbass clan do similar but they are all much larger at first feeding. Pigmentation also very interesting where larvae quickly change melanopores to approximate shade of dominant feature in their background.
#3
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 28 October 2014 - 07:37 PM
Trying this again.
First shows father about 18" above nest roughly 6" below surface. His coloration is not courtship coloration and he will attack other fish and me. You can just make out a larva just in front of him slightly to right. Few of the larvae swim in the open. This is about day post-exodus / swimmup.
Second image showls larvae picking on a substrate for edibles growing.
First shows father about 18" above nest roughly 6" below surface. His coloration is not courtship coloration and he will attack other fish and me. You can just make out a larva just in front of him slightly to right. Few of the larvae swim in the open. This is about day post-exodus / swimmup.
Second image showls larvae picking on a substrate for edibles growing.
#4
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Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:24 AM
Another interesting note. Even though brood still hanging near nest, male has resumed courting behavior towards females. After female leaves, male calms down resuming the typical non-courting coloration. All very different from bluegill and redear.
#6
Guest_gerald_*
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Posted 30 October 2014 - 11:23 AM
I didn't realize that feeding off the bottom is unusual for newly-feeding Centrarchids. For species in flowing waters and nutrient-poor still waters I would guess bottom-feeders would find a LOT more food than mid-water feeders. While researching for an Ennecanthus talk a few years ago somebody on here (I thought it was you, but maybe it was Brian Z?) told me that E. chaetodon fry are primarily surface-pickers, and have trouble eating mid-water plankton.
#7
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 30 October 2014 - 01:15 PM
It was not me. Among Lepomis feeding off bottom is not typical. Species of fast flowing streams may do it more than I think. Redbreast among Lepomis a likely candidate. This example is not a fast flow species, rather it is strongly associated with submerged vegetation in areas with some flow. The potential for parental care also makes them stand out.
Has anyone seen how males of the rockbass group behave around brood once they leave the nest?
Has anyone seen how males of the rockbass group behave around brood once they leave the nest?
#8
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 30 October 2014 - 03:49 PM
I am sorry if I missed something, but are Ambloplites the genera under discussion? I am also not educated well enough to understand why this is such an odd behavior. Centrarchid, would you mind taking a few minutes to expound on this so others can fully understand what is happening here. You deal with breeding Centrarchids on a daily basis, most of us don't. I would really like to know more about what you are finding so intriguing. Thanks.
#9
Guest_UncleWillie_*
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Posted 30 October 2014 - 04:01 PM
After reading this, I was like Matt - I felt like I missed something (I didn't know substrate picking was so abnormal for Centrachids. Learn something new everyday I reckon. If I were to guess though, I'd say the fish in question/in the photo is either spotted (L. punctatus) or redspotted (L. miniatus).
#11
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 30 October 2014 - 07:00 PM
I have bred many species of Centrarchid over the years, especially within the genus Lepomis. Most species are like Bluegill, Redear, Green Sunfish, Pumpkinseed, Orange Spotted Sunfish, most Longears, and Warmouth and Bantams (I smoke a different dope and do not think the latter two should be in Lepomis), Black Crappie and White Crappie where larvae are decidedly pelagic once they live the nest. The pelagic species avoid structure and as far as I can tell feed only on zooplankton. The other extreme involves the black basses where young are not pelagic and stay in close proximity to nest once leaving it. Northern Largemouth Bass still feed on zooplankton while Spotted Bass and apparently Smallmouth Bass not only avoid pelagic zone but also so a great deal of feeding off the bottom under the fathers supervision immediately. The Spotted Bass are even inclined to consume a formulated diet at a first feed and survive quite well if feed is good. I have raised Rock Bass, Shadow Bass and Ozark Bass and they are highly developed through metamorphosis at first feeding and also very much bottom oriented when looking for eats. You can also distinguish those species at a glance by time they begin feeding. I have taken time to observe Ozark Bass just outside of the nest and they appear to stay near nest and fathers protection for at least a couple of days based on one weekend worth of observations in the North Fork White River in southern Missouri.
The part that interests me deals with Lepomis where one, possibly two species, are intermediate between the Bluegill and black bass approaches. Both species are also very easy to culture in tanks but also do not do well where streams have been channelized.
For me this is a bigger pattern starting to come together that helps me understand how Centrarchids vary with respect to our modifications to their environments.
Skipjack, just call me Sally.
The part that interests me deals with Lepomis where one, possibly two species, are intermediate between the Bluegill and black bass approaches. Both species are also very easy to culture in tanks but also do not do well where streams have been channelized.
For me this is a bigger pattern starting to come together that helps me understand how Centrarchids vary with respect to our modifications to their environments.
Skipjack, just call me Sally.
#13
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Posted 31 October 2014 - 03:31 PM
Swifter water yes, but also a lot less within reach habitat diversity. Substrate part I think is not a major issue with the sunfish clan since they create their own nest and nest bound brood are on the surface rather than in interstitial spaces as typical of most stream dwelling salmonids and many egg burying darters. Could also mean a reduction in the abundance of submerged vegetation.
#14
Guest_Skipjack_*
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Posted 31 October 2014 - 05:52 PM
Could also mean a reduction in the abundance of submerged vegetation.
I guess that varies by area. Some of our channelized streams have a lot of submerged vegetation. More than many of our natural streams. Seems that the fast flowing cooler water favors some of these plants. Not that this means anything to your research. Interestingly even many non aquatic plants grow year round submerged in these swift flowing ground water fed streams.
Do you feel that these species require the ability to feed off of substrate? Is that why they do poorly in streams that inhibit their ability to do so?
#15
Guest_centrarchid_*
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Posted 01 November 2014 - 07:22 AM
Channelized streams typically have a reduced plant assemblage. Those channelized stream with abundant submerged plants have the strong populations. The within stream variations of flow might be very important. These sunfishes are not associated generally with fast slow but they are associated with flow. Adults more likely to be in area of no flow. Groundwater feeding of streams may be very important.
They do not require the ability to go eat off bottom but it might be either a safer or more consistent method of feeding. I am thing the instream locations are like reefs where eats are likely concentrated by interaction of flow and structure provide by plants.
They do not require the ability to go eat off bottom but it might be either a safer or more consistent method of feeding. I am thing the instream locations are like reefs where eats are likely concentrated by interaction of flow and structure provide by plants.
#16
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Posted 13 November 2014 - 11:49 AM
Brood now at fry stage with metamorphosis largely complete. Swimming much stronger with some swimming up to male and pecking at his flanks without his paying attention. Thye avoid him when he swims fast but not otherwise. If we would replace him with another adult the fry would be consumed quickly. He is also very aggressive and not exhibiting nuptial coloration.
#17
centrarchid
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Posted 25 November 2014 - 09:13 PM
I just opened my American Currents and saw an article on the red spotted sunfish in Illinois. That is where I developed my interest in them and non-game species in general.I am surprised no authors of the the article has displayed and interest in this subject.
Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.
#18
centrarchid
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Posted 03 December 2014 - 01:02 PM
This how female avoids the male above even in a 240-gallon tank with a 5-foot diameter. She lays on her side almost out of water even with lots of structure to hide behind. Male rules / patrols entire tanks volume. Brood still present now as fry and he makes not effort to assail them. Male color pattern also not consistent with breeding dress. Bluegill, redear, longear, warmouth, greens, dollars and even pumpkinseeds to not do this.
This thread may need to be moved since now devolving into simple observations.
This thread may need to be moved since now devolving into simple observations.
Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.
#19
gerald
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Posted 03 December 2014 - 03:58 PM
18 posts so far and you're STILL not telling us what species this is.
Is there a reason for this secrecy?
Is there a reason for this secrecy?
Gerald Pottern
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Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel
#20
Isaac Szabo
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Posted 03 December 2014 - 04:10 PM
Post 17 seems to indicate that it is redspotted.
Jim, to make sure I am understanding correctly, your significant observations are that, unlike most Lepomis, the fry are bottom oriented and the father exhibits a longer duration of guarding behavior?
Jim, to make sure I am understanding correctly, your significant observations are that, unlike most Lepomis, the fry are bottom oriented and the father exhibits a longer duration of guarding behavior?
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