8 replies to this topic

[mikez]

I just bought my 2015 hunting/fishing license as I have done at the beginning of every year since I was 16 [a long time]. Reading through my updated regulation abstract, I came across a couple things that I'd like to share here. Hopefully this won't be seen as intentionally inflammatory and will be allowed to stay up. I think some worthwhile discussion can be generated.

I edited the fish regs for length, tried to highlite the points I want to make, unfortunately the tool bar for this forum hates me, designed for smart people, it don't obey my.

Basically the big one is at the bottom - NO transportation of live fish except the nine species listed as bait.
So how do the tropical keepers get their fish home from the store??????

The bait list is curious as well. Native pumpkinseeds are bait but bluegill aren't???? There is no standing and few moving bodies of water without large bluegill populations. That cow got out of the barn decades ago. Why close the door now? I say use 'em to get rid of 'em.
The glaring oddity is the inclusion of fathead minnow. First, they are rarely if ever offered for sale here, second, they have not yet invaded the bulk of the state. Why encourage that????

Unfortunately, many anglers are gonna ignore these regs [especially the "no littering" reg]. And obviously the hundreds of thousands of goldfish and tropical keepers have no clue about these regs and will never, ever be asked to obey them.
I have a real problem with laws don't make sense, especially unenforceable laws that dilute the power of all laws by encouraging scofflaw behavior. As I read this, even little kid who brings home a goldfish from the pet shop is a scofflaw.


"Bait It is unlawful to take baitfish for the purpose of sale from the inland waters of the Commonwealth. Individuals trapping fish for personal use as baitfish may use only one trap.

• Baitfish may be taken by licensed anglers at any time for personal use by all lawful methods, including a rectangular net not exceeding 36 square feet of net area or by a hoop or circular net not exceeding 6 feet in diameter or with a fish trap with openings not exceeding one inch. Nets designed to gill fish are prohibited. The following species may be taken for personal use as bait by licensed anglers. Only the fish species listed below may be used as bait, live or dead.

Banded Killifish Fallfish Fathead Minnow Golden Shiner Mummichog Pumpkinseed Rainbow Smelt* Yellow Perch White Sucker * Smelt may be taken only by hook and line. Possession or use of smelt as bait in inland waters other than during the smelt season is prohibited.

• Possession of: Sturgeon (all species), American Brook Lamprey, Atlantic (sea-run) Salmon, Bridle Shiner, Burbot, Eastern Silvery Minnow, Lake Chub, Longnose Sucker, and Northern Redbelly Dace is illegal! If caught, release immediately. This means remove hook or cut line and return fish to water immediately — do not pose for photographs, place on a stringer, hold in a net, or delay in any way the immediate return and release of the fish to the water.
• Releasing fish or spawn into inland waters, except by permit.
• Transporting live fish (except bait for personal use) without a permit.
• Jug, toggle, or trot line fishing.
• Snagging
• Poisons, explosives
• Littering in inland waters."

[gerald]

NC and other states have similar language in various parts of their fishing regs that don't seem to make sense in terms of the pet trade. Years ago I asked one of the NC-WRC old-timers who'd been involved in writing the rules, and he told me they were FISHING rules, meant to regulate fishing activity and not intended to regulate the pet trade or hobbyist fish-breeders, which is regulated by Dept of Agriculture. Obviously there is some overlap and the agencies need to coordinate (especially regarding protected species and prohibited species) but there are some weird incongruities that never got resolved. One of my "favorites glitches" in the NC regs is that minnow seines used for taking bait cannot be over 12 ft long, "except in Lake Waccamaw any length seine may be used". Lake Waccamaw contains multiple species of federal-listed and state-listed rare fish and mussels.

[FirstChAoS]

I just bought my 2015 hunting/fishing license as I have done at the beginning of every year since I was 16 [a long time]. Reading through my updated regulation abstract, I came across a couple things that I'd like to share here. Hopefully this won't be seen as intentionally inflammatory and will be allowed to stay up. I think some worthwhile discussion can be generated.

The bait list is curious as well. Native pumpkinseeds are bait but bluegill aren't???? There is no standing and few moving bodies of water without large bluegill populations. That cow got out of the barn decades ago. Why close the door now? I say use 'em to get rid of 'em.
The glaring oddity is the inclusion of fathead minnow. First, they are rarely if ever offered for sale here, second, they have not yet invaded the bulk of the state. Why encourage that????


"Bait It is unlawful to take baitfish for the purpose of sale from the inland waters of the Commonwealth. Individuals trapping fish for personal use as baitfish may use only one trap.

Banded Killifish Fallfish Fathead Minnow Golden Shiner Mummichog Pumpkinseed Rainbow Smelt* Yellow Perch White Sucker * Smelt may be taken only by hook and line. Possession or use of smelt as bait in inland waters other than during the smelt season is prohibited.

• Possession of: Sturgeon (all species), American Brook Lamprey, Atlantic (sea-run) Salmon, Bridle Shiner, Burbot, Eastern Silvery Minnow, Lake Chub, Longnose Sucker, and Northern Redbelly Dace is illegal! If caught, release immediately. This means remove hook or cut line and return fish to water immediately — do not pose for photographs, place on a stringer, hold in a net, or delay in any way the immediate return and release of the fish to the water.
• Releasing fish or spawn into inland waters, except by permit.
• Transporting live fish (except bait for personal use) without a permit

Wow, I didn't realize the mass regulations are so strict. Thankfully in NH the rules on live transport have loosened a bit lately. (In fact I seen enough hints in rules discussions and changes that I suspect their is a NH Fish and Game forum regular, which is cool).

What I noticed in my experience is the rules against collecting non-game species are stricter on paper than what is enforced. Note, I am NOT telling you to disobey the written rules, just in my experience in NH (Mass may differ) is Fish and Game officers do not care if you take a darter or two for a home tank if they meet you in the field.

Use of pumpkinseeds as bait and not bluegills makes sense as bluegills are invaders. However I doubt this would stop little kids moving sunnies from pond to pond, (sadly I did this as a kid, other fishermen I know did too. Worst of all I think a bass I moved once ate all a fire ponds brook trout. I wish I could make up for that mistake somehow. I was a stupid kid).

You cannot have burbot, lake chub, northern redbelly dace, or longnose sucker? Are you on the edge of their range?

[mikez]

I'm pretty sure they have reduced the bait list recently, but I can't find my old abstracts so I'm not positive. I do know emerald shiners used to be sold in Ma but are not on the list for 2015.
Emeralds were my favorite for the trout ponds where smelt were found because they had the long thin shape that allowed you to avoid using smelt which are hard to catch and have a closed season that overlaps the icefishing season.

Personally I only use live bait for icefishing and I buy golden shiners which are the best bait. However over the years I have had green sunfish, goldfish and various dace mixed in my store bought bait. According to the letter of the law, you could get in trouble if you got checked.
Having said that, I've fished Ma for over 30 years and have been warden checked dozens of times. Never have I had a warden look in my bucket or discuss my bait in any way. Quite frankly I don't think the wardens I've met could ID some of the species on the list, nor are they inclined to care given the difficulty of their job already. Just my opinion and I apologize for it.

Banning bluegill makes no sense as they are ubiquitous across the state and can not be spread any further than they already are. It is also mighty tough to tell them from P-seeds when small.

The fathead minnow thing really bugs me because they are NOT wide spread in Ma. I have never seen fatheads offered in bait shops but they are sold in every pet store as feeders. Assuming anybody really pays attention to this obscure rule, I envision a scenario where fatheads would become popular to use as bait. They would then be spread across the state where they wouldn't be if left off the list.

Banded killifish makes no sense as they are small, fragile and totally unsuitable as bait. Most fishermen never heard of them let alone know where to find them. Furthermore, they are limited not only in where in the state they are found, but in what type of habitat. Of course they are pretty cool aquarium fish so that's one good thing for us native keepers.

Fallfish surprise me a bit too as they are large voracious predators and don't seem like the type you want to spread around the state.

I realize the laws are written for fishermen not pet store customers but the wording is pretty rigid. I would not want to argue the point with a warden who had a copy of the regs in his hands.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Good luck ever making sense of the various laws, and frequent changes made to them. We just have to try our best to interpret them correctly and follow what we understand as true. I for one don't plan to keep a lawyer on retainer for fish related activities. I doubt that anyone is likely to be prosecuted for what is in their bait bucket unless they are obviously and knowingly breaking the law. It is not like we are talking about the precious gamefish,waterfowl, or wild game.

[mikez]

For me what it means is I just don't keep any Mass natives with the exception of a couple pumpkinseeds I allowed my boy to keep with his turtles.

When I buy bait for fishing I only need golden shiners so no hardship there, just have to be careful to remove random stray species that might be off limits from the bucket before going out.

The real question remains, how do I get the fish I collect in say, Florida, back home to Massachusetts. Or how do I get my live tropical fish home from the pet store?

See why I say we're outlaws.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Mike, how is the average recreational fisherman, the one who fishes twice a year going to be able to follow the law by removing oddballs from the bait he buys? He barely knows what species he is catching let alone what is in his bait bucket?

Educating ourselves about native fishes is somewhat of a double edged sword. The educated ones are the only people who can reasonably be expected to understand these regulations. I know ignorance is no excuse. Then you have common names. And locally common names.

I hate to say it, but you can kind of see why TN went the way they did. Many anglers are too ignorant to follow the laws. Many game wardens are too ignorant to enforce them. So enthusiasts are left out in the cold. If our "type" were higher in numbers, and brought in more revenue, I imagine laws would change, and would be written with us in mind.

As far as transporting fish, If anyone is ever actually prosecuted for transporting fish from a pet store, or transporting their pets from Florida, I would be shocked. I believe the judge presiding would also be quite shocked. I know what I would do if it ever happened to me. I would demand a jury trial. Then watch in amazement at how quickly the charges were dropped.

[fundulus]

I've had conversations with wardens in Alabama who say they're only concerned with non-residents shooting deer illegally. That's not all wardens, but I suspect many share that same view; I doubt that many could tell a flame chub from a tuscumbia darter.

[mikez]

The thing that worries me most, the dirty secret no one says out loud, even the most careful, ethical angler will accidently "release" live bait in the course of fishing. Bait gets off the hook when a fish grabs it or when the line gets stuck. I'm afraid if the trend continues in the law, someday we will be forced to use only dead bait or bait collected in the body of water you're fishing in. That would be huge.

I agree wardens probably don't want to become the bait bucket police. Their job is hard enough and they face real, actual criminals and dirtbags everyday. Still, if the good folks on Beacon Hill make a point of it as some other states have, it could be something they're forced to delve into.
Of course with the level of poaching and the heinous littering going on at my favorite bodies of H2O and getting worse everyday, I really hope they don't divert wardens' attention to minnows, nevermind the inconvenience to aquarium keepers.

Regarding transporting live fish other than for bait, I'm dying to send an email to the state looking for clarification but am extremely reluctant to call attention to myself. I was hoping someone here would volunteer.