19 replies to this topic

[Chasmodes]

Hey everyone.

I've come into possession a tank and my plan is to build it as a stream tank, with darters and other peaceful fish as the key species. It's a 75 gallon tank (although, I have two 55 gallon tanks not in use, so I may use one of them instead). I'd like to capture and keep species from a particular stream. In fact, I'd like everything in the tank to come from the stream, from the substrate to the rocks and anything else. It will be my slice of my favorite small stream.

Anyway, if I do that, then I have two options for setting it up as I see it.

1) To collect the substrate and other things that go into the tank and completely sterilize them, then cycle the tank as you would any new tank (no fish method). Then, add fish after quarantine and treatment of potential parasites. This is the safest approach.

But... part of me is thinking this way:

2) To collect the substrate, rocks and other tank objects and let the tank cycle naturally, without sterilization or cleaning. Then, run the tank fallow for a couple months to kill off potential fish parasites and at the same time establish a good population of critters for the darters to feed on. I realize that the fish will eventually consume almost everything, but maybe not. Still, that has to be a healthier way to keep thing, I'd think. I would still quarantine any new fish, including the first inhabitants. I may add a refugium or something like it at a later date to keep a good place for amphipods and copepods to multiply...

And, if you've tried both methods, have you noticed a different in your fishes health? If there is no difference, then perhaps I'd better take the safest way...

Has anyone tried #2? What are your thoughts?

[Sean Phillips]

If you're positive that the substrate and rocks is disease free then I'd go with number two but since it's almost impossible to guarantee that then I'd go with number one. I'm setting a 75G western pa tank rather soon (well, converting it from a catfish tank to a natives tank) and I'm going to use about 3-4" of washed pool filter sand for deep substrate and seed it with live blackworms for the darters to graze on all day. I might also add some amphipods to the tank as well, still debating that.

[Josh Blaylock]

I'd go with #2.

I've used fresh sand from a local creek without cleaning it. Unless the area you plan to get it from is really dirty/polluted , I wouldn't sweat it.

[Michael Wolfe]

I agree with Josh... do not go sterile, go natural... this is what the reef people do when they culture live rock in the ocean these days (also used to be the way in the old days of collecting live rock).

I have added lots of substrate, plants, rocks, branches, leaves, etc. to my tanks (oh and fish too). I sometimes think that we stress things more by quarantining them in a sterile, blank, smaller than our normal system, environment... maybe even doing more harm than good... best things for fish is clean water and good food... but right after that is an appropriate hiding space or appropriate tank mates that make the place feel natural to them and reduces stress. OK, maybe that was a derail...

Back on track... I like your idea of collecting it wild and then running it for a while to make sure it is all stable... then add fishes.

[mikez]

I agree with Josh... do not go sterile, go natural... this is what the reef people do when they culture live rock in the ocean these days (also used to be the way in the old days of collecting live rock).

I have added lots of substrate, plants, rocks, branches, leaves, etc. to my tanks (oh and fish too). I sometimes think that we stress things more by quarantining them in a sterile, blank, smaller than our normal system, environment... maybe even doing more harm than good... best things for fish is clean water and good food... but right after that is an appropriate hiding space or appropriate tank mates that make the place feel natural to them and reduces stress. OK, maybe that was a derail...
Back on track... I like your idea of collecting it wild and then running it for a while to make sure it is all stable... then add fishes.

I also agree with everything Michael said.

I've been adding rocks, driftwood, etc, even fish, without any cleaning or quarantine for many years. You may have to live with snails and insect larvae you didn't plan on but the fear of diseases and parasites is mainly a throwback to the tropical hobby where conventional wisdom says "kill everything".
The only caveats I would add;
First, if you take sand or gravel, don't dig too deep. Just scoop the lively thin top layer and avoid stagnant deep layers.
Second, use good judgment when you select creatures or objects to add. Don't take from dirty, polluted, stagnant water and don't add critters if you observe any sick looking ones near by.

Your theory of leaving the tank fishless for over 30 days is a sound one but the tank will not cycle and the bio-filter won't mature without the "food" provided by the fish waste, uneaten food etc.

[gerald]

The majority of fish parasites in a stream are on the fish. Since you can't sterilize the fish, there is little point in sterilizing sand, rocks, and wood from the creek. The chance of bringing in a parasite on a rock that's not also on the fish is very small (except maybe a leech). I would however sift the sand through a screen to remove metal scraps and other trash (bottle caps, lead weights, asphalt, etc) and then rinse it well.

[Michael Wolfe]

Your theory of leaving the tank fishless for over 30 days is a sound one but the tank will not cycle and the bio-filter won't mature without the "food" provided by the fish waste, uneaten food etc.

True... you have to feed the tank even though there are no fish in there. Just a pinch of flake everyday, like if you only had two fish to feed. The snails and what not will eat some and some will decompose and feed your biofliter.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the input. That is the way I was leaning, the natural method. You guys gave me some great tips and ideas.

If I'm bringing in fresh gravel and rock, wouldn't the necessary bacteria already be there which will shorten the cycle? I was thinking that I could always add a small crayfish to add some life and keep it fed. I know that I'd have to get rid of it prior to adding the fish.

[Matt DeLaVega]

http://www.drtimsaqu...ishless-cycling

Fishless cycling. IMO the only way to go. This gives you the basics. The most important thing is using an ammonia that is pure, one without surfactants. I did a fishless cycle on tanks in my greenhouse. 2000 gallons. I used some hardcore ammonia due to the size, but you do not need that in your case. I got the filtration to a point that it was consuming so much ammonia that when I introduced 900- 1.5 inch fish in one day, that I had no spike in ammonia or nitrites. No stress on the fish other than moving them from my basement to the greenhouse.

The fish food will do roughly the same thing, but you can use the fishless cycling system to build up so much nitrifying bacteria that you can fully stock the aquarium, and the bacteria will die back to what is needed.

Just to finish the story, I grew 900 fish to 6 inches in 5 months in just over 2 gallons of water per fish with no water changes. It is an aquaponics system, and the fish were blue tilapia.

[Chasmodes]

Thanks Matt!

aquaponics system

Wow, this is interesting. I've never really heard of that before even though during my web tank research I've seen pictures of them...cool concept. It's almost like a gigantic algae scrubber!

[Matt DeLaVega]

Yes, but it provides vegetables for the table as well as fish. My system does not really fit in with the NANFA mission, so I do not speak much of it, but it has surely taught me a few useful things. I was doing fishless cycles prior with grocery store ammonia for my native tanks. Then I started just keeping extra sponge filters in various tanks. If I wanted to start a new tank, or just hold fish, as I was selling a good bit of fish at the time, I would just pull cycled sponge filters from a tank add them and fish to the new tank, and done. If I did not want to keep a sponge filter in the tank, I could run an HOB on it for a month with the sponge, then remove the sponge.

Sponge filters are so versatile.

[Kanus]

Matt, you're treading on a slippery slope linking to informative pages with youtube videos and such. I half expected to see a graph as I scrolled down!

But I agree with everything said here previously. My favorite substrate out of all the tanks I have is the gravelly cobbley stuff I collected myself, amended a bit with a few hunks of geode from Kentucky.

[Matt DeLaVega]

 17lfv79qkou0ljpg.jpg   64.13KB   1 downloads

That's all I can say Derek!

[mikez]

....I started just keeping extra sponge filters in various tanks. If I wanted to start a new tank, or just hold fish, as I was selling a good bit of fish at the time, I would just pull cycled sponge filters from a tank add them and fish to the new tank, and done. If I did not want to keep a sponge filter in the tank, I could run an HOB on it for a month with the sponge, then remove the sponge.

Sponge filters are so versatile.

This is also what I do. I try and plan ahead and will add one or more filters to existing tanks.
I set up the filters for my saltwater tropical strays in July, didn't collect my first fish until September. New tank w/new water but well established filters. Easier than fishless cycling, especially as I don't use test kits. No good way of judging progress in fishless cycling w/o measuring the NH3.

[mikez]

.... My favorite substrate out of all the tanks I have is the gravelly cobbley stuff I collected myself, amended a bit with a few hunks of geode from Kentucky.

I also love my natural gravel but lacking pieces of geodes I like to mix in a few ancient, native American produced flakes of quartz and even a broken point or two. Even been known to drop in a flake or two of the colonial era blue and white glazed pottery.

Which reminds me, Gerald is right to warn about sifting out the nails and bottlecaps etc. Have found plenty of that crap in my natural substrates.

[Josh Blaylock]

Me too Mike, I recently added a few handfuls of gravel from a little creek I visited (I liked the color), and later found there was a broken piece of a brown bottle in it.....nothing like that truly natural look.

[Matt DeLaVega]

They used to have an aquarium at the Cincinnati Zoo. Now they have some displays with aquariums, and manatees, but they used to have a dedicated aquarium when I was a kid. They had an Ohio river biotope. It had a catfish, a couple bluegills, and several carp. It also had a tire, beer cans, bottles, and various other trash.

[Michael Wolfe]

Ditto for the Trinity River display in Dallas

[mikez]

Yep, New England Aquarium had an awesome Boston Harbor display built around a dock piling. If I recall correctly they had a beer bottle as part of the debris on the bottom.

[Kanus]

I used to see these at Petco when I was working there and always thought they'd look great on the bottom of a fishtank.