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#1 smbass

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:13 AM

Lepomis cyanellus


zooxanthellae, that sunfish is a freak... part green but there is something else in there too. What else was found where you caught it, if I had to guess I would say there is some pumpkinseed or maybe dollar sunfish in that thing... Either way it is a really nice looking fish. Just figured you should know if you were calling it a green that is only half right.

Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#2 zooxanthellae

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:12 PM

zooxanthellae, that sunfish is a freak... part green but there is something else in there too. What else was found where you caught it, if I had to guess I would say there is some pumpkinseed or maybe dollar sunfish in that thing... Either way it is a really nice looking fish. Just figured you should know if you were calling it a green that is only half right.



Well, you have definitely piqued my interest. Usually I do not have any issues picking out hybrids, but nothing about that one struck me as odd. Granted the color was incredible, but the general shape, mouth size, and opercular tabs lead me right to green sunfish and I never looked any further. That fish was caught in a retention pond with conspecifics that all looked just as colorful, but no other species were present. What about him leads you to think he is a hybrid? Apparently I need to step up my ID game!

Here is hybrid green from another local pond:
Attached File  hybrid_green.png   715.81KB   6 downloads

#3 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 06:03 PM

I instantly thought hybrid as well, but I thought Green x longear. If you want to pursue trying to ID this fish, you could start another thread in the ID subforum. It is a great photo, and an incredible fish. I kind of want some.

The member formerly known as Skipjack


#4 smbass

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:59 AM

zooxanthellae, as Matt suggested re-post that sunfish photo in the ID forum and I'll gladly explain what I see. Don't want to further derail the calender thread. If someone more skilled than I wants to delete this and move my first comment feel free to do so!

Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#5 Sean Phillips

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:29 AM

When I saw that thing originally I thought two things. 1) Awesome hybrid, 2) Wonder what shipping is? :)
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#6 Kanus

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 01:35 PM

I'm with you Sean, it has been a long long time since I've had any desire to keep a green sunfish, but that photo may change that. I was stunned when I first saw it.

Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

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#7 zooxanthellae

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:21 PM

Thanks for moving this for me!
So I think I am going to have to revisit that pond today and take some more pictures, I'm curious as to whether or not those were just breeding colors.

Not sure if it will help at all, but here is a juvenile (~3") taken the same day, same place. I can see some potential pumpkinseed in this guy.
Attached File  Lepomis-cyanellus2.png   636.32KB   4 downloads

Out of curiosity, what exactly are you guys using to determine the hybrid status? I've heard color and shape so far, but would feel better about some meristics. I'm getting the impression that color and shape play a much greater role in identifying these than I realized.

#8 centrarchid

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:21 PM

I see strong indication of stunting.

Hybrid nature to me first based on not a species I am familiar with. Secondly the wavy lines on face indicate green / pumpkin / longear / dollar / redbreast but the brownish color between lines does not jive with any but is something I expect to see with hybrids of those involving bluegill. Lines also too wide with some broken. Not a good example in this guy but the lower jaw back along operculum shows the gray-blue typical of bluegill and all its hybrids I have seen. Flank coloration similar to green but spotting pattern and the more orangish belly does not agree. Spines much to large (long) relative to body depth for typical green although that character is not good for me with fast growing young fish. I think fish stunted so that is not a problem here.
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#9 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:04 PM

Centrarchid, the last photo, looks stunted, but the first photo at the top of the page,( the fish in question)in the very first post also looks stunted to you? What am I missing.

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#10 centrarchid

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:12 PM

First fish stunted relative to my cultured fish but that is relative so I would not give the opinion of stunted on that one. First fish would best be evaluated based on age as determined by otoliths. The stunted second fish, look at the eye diameter relative to the total length. The eye diameter to total length ratio is much higher. With my really fast growing fish the eyes appear abnormally small relative to length / age. Eye growth seems more tightly coupled with age than other attributes although nutrition might act in another way like with jaw morphology.
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#11 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:20 PM

Are you seeing this fish?

http://forum.nanfa.o...omis-cyanellus/

The member formerly known as Skipjack


#12 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 05:23 PM

Out of curiosity, what exactly are you guys using to determine the hybrid status? I've heard color and shape so far, but would feel better about some meristics. I'm getting the impression that color and shape play a much greater role in identifying these than I realized.


I can't say much about meristics, but compare your fish to one of Ulands photos of a run of the mill green.
Attached File  Lepomis cyanellus Green Sunfish 2000.jpg   43.61KB   12 downloadsAttached File  crazy green.png   715.08KB   9 downloads

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#13 Kanus

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 07:35 PM

That juvenile is making me think redbreast is in the mix. It has that more streamlined body and the prevalence of orange/yellow on the breast, as well as the orange spotting on the side (characteristic of juvenile redbreasts).

Very difficult to say for sure though. Sorta seems like the kind of fish Isaac would conjure up in photoshop to mess with us!


Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

Enchanting Ectotherms

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#14 Sean Phillips

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 07:46 PM

To me, these are what they look like.

The first: Green X Longear

The Second: Bluegill X Pumpkinseed (P-Seed more prominent)

The third: Green X Pumpkinseed.

Both the first and the third look incredibly stunning. In all seriousness, I'd be happy to buy one (or a half dozen) if you could ship to PA.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#15 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:04 PM

I don't know guys. Look above. Other than color it is a green. Mouth size is not even midpoint, it is as big as a greens. Wow if this is a stabilized population of freak greens. I still think hybrid because I am a naysayer, but......

Count it out. Dorsal spines vary by one.

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#16 centrarchid

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 08:44 PM

I can't say much about meristics, but compare your fish to one of Ulands photos of a run of the mill green.
Attached File  Lepomis cyanellus Green Sunfish 2000.jpg   43.61KB   12 downloadsAttached File  crazy green.png   715.08KB   9 downloads


Second fish is not a run of the mill green. Flank coloration is consistent with pumpkinseed and (pumpkinseed x green). The comparison with a redbreast hybrid I cannot refute because not seen such involving greens.

Zoozantheliae's last fish could involve pumpkin x bluegill which could help explain the large spines.
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#17 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 09:19 PM

Centrarchid. The second photo I posted is what got this whole topic started. We know it is not a run of the mill. The one in the photo I posted above it is a run of the mill. We are trying to decide what it is. Seems like pumpkinseed keeps coming up as the other part of the woodpile. Shape wise though, and mouth size, it looks very similar to the normal green in my post.

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#18 centrarchid

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:29 PM

When I first got involved the first image was not visible to me and did cause confusion. I have made pumpkinseed x greens and greens x pumpkinseeds and they do look like your initial fish in question. Somewhere on this site in post about 5 years old are images I posted of known crosses and what you suspect is among them. Lots of other crosses also but not many involving redbreast. I just had several different crosses involving redbreast dressed and they were dandies but none where good matches for your fish with orange spots on the flanks.
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#19 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:47 PM

Thanks Centrarchid. From your posts I knew you were not seeing something. I was trying to tip toe around in case of the small chance I was wrong, and you were just crazy. What I do know for sure is the sunfish in question here is the prettiest hybrid sunfish I have ever seen, and a fantastic picture to boot. So between you and Brian Zimmerman, it looks like you guys are feeling cyanellus x gibbosis.

I see the the green. I don't seem to pick up the gibbosis. Can you or Brian expound on what you see?

The member formerly known as Skipjack


#20 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:52 PM

Oh, and why does it have almost a 100% green phenotype except for coloration? I would expect a somewhat smaller mouth, and even with gibbosis a marginally deeper body.

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