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Substrate questions


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#1 junebug

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 04:48 PM

I am setting up two native tanks in the semi-near future.  Since I live in Cali where collecting is not allowed (and we don't have any fish I fell in love with) I am ordering in fish from the eastern half of the US.

 

The first tank will be a sunfish community, with (luck allowing) northern longears, dollars, and a smaller species like Bantams (thanks to Brian for all his amazing help in figuring out what I'm putting in my tank haha).  It will be heavily planted with Sagittaria, Ludwigia, Cabomba, and Myrio (and other cool native plants if I can find them - if anyone has a suggestion of something colorful found in the eastern US lakes and rivers, I'd love to know about it.).  It's a 40 gallon, drilled overflow, 20 gal sump.  The sump will probably have cabomba and hornwort, an algae scrubber (if I can manage to make it) and some biomedia.

 

This is going to be a loose biotope with all native plants.  What substrate would be appropriate?  Sand with river rocks seems like it would look best, but is that the type of substrate these fish are found over?  Should I use silty sand, or coarse sand?  Any particular color that will really look good with the sunfish? If I do this, I'll likely use a soil layer below it to fertilize the plants.  Also I'd love to know if snails are appropriate for this tank, and if so, what type and where do I purchase them?

 

 

The second tank is going to be what I'm calling my "north america" tank.  Bluenose shiners, heterandia formosa, and micropoecilia picta..  It's a 20 gallon long, on which I may try to run a 3-5 gallon sump.  The bluenose shiners are going to be the "feature" fish.  I plan on a light to medium current, and again native plants, with the addition of azolla caroliniana and hornwort (as the fish in this tank range further into the tropics where these plants are found).  Again I would like to know opinions on substrate for this tank.  Color, type, layering, etc.  And again advice on cleanup snails.  It is also possible, depending on how the tank goes, that I might get a brown darter pair to add.  Because they are beautiful.  It's dependent on how the micropoecilia and heterandia do, as they're the ones likely to be eaten by darters lol.



#2 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:32 PM

Soil substrate beneath sand is always a good choice in my opinion.

 

And again, just my opinion, but there is no such thing as too many snails.  They are all good guys.


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 junebug

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 12:35 AM

Yeah, I mean I love snails.  But what snails would be appropriate to native biotopes?  And the most important thing: Will they kill my plants? haha.  Oh and also important is whether I can purchase them from out-of-state.  The only snails I've found in-state are Spixis, mystery snails, nerites, and other small ornamental snails.

 

Apple snails are illegal to bring into California.  The only reason I've ever kept spixis is that I can buy them from a local store that carries them from an in-state supplier, otherwise I would never be able to legally purchase them.  

 

Of course there are always the bladder, pond, ramshorn, and trapdoor snails, but I was thinking more of "on purpose" tank inhabitants.

 

Also for the sand - would playsand be a good choice?  Or should I go with something coarser grained?



#4 Beeker

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 03:46 PM

I must recommend AGAINST ramshorns.  They will eat healthy, as well as rotting, plants. 

Actually, they will eat anything, even eachother.  They are fierce and will multiply like crazy. 

I bought 5 Assassin Snails to take care of an overrun 30 gallon tank, and I've found that the ramshorns have killed and eaten some of my Assassin Snails.  I know I have one that is still alive, but I saw the ramshorns killing one of them before my eyes and I've seen two other Assassin shells that haven't moved in at least a week.

 

I don't overfeed the tank, so I know that isn't the reason for the population explosion of ramshorns.

I have a lot of Java Fern and Anubias in the tank that the snails can munch on with out decimating the plant stock, but my Wisteria and Cabomba can't seem to hold up to those ramshorns.

 

I have pond snails.  They are not so bad.  They do multiply easily and get into the filter, just like the ramshorns, but they only eat rotting plant matter.  As long as there isn't a lot of rotting vegetation in the tank, the pondsnail population can be kept in check.

 

I hope this info helps.



#5 mattknepley

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 04:40 PM

A handful of darters and a little time. Those assassins are toast.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#6 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 10:43 PM

Junebug. I use at sand from Home Depot with no problems for me darters and it looks good to me.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#7 junebug

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 05:40 AM

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me the sunfish dig, Gerald.  Lol that would have been a sad thing for me to find out the hard way.  Maybe I'll do pea gravel in their tank, then.  That will be better for the plants without fertilizers.  And I can add some larger river rocks into the 'scape to make it look like... well... a river.  Swamp.  Thing.  Or maybe just straight sand with a layer of laterite or something beneath.  Or flourite sand.  (the options are limitless HAHAHA)

 

I wish I could get substrate from my local waterways.  Unfortunately I just happen to know it isn't safe, too many chemicals and other such things get dumped in the very little running water we have out here.

 

I'm thinking playsand with soil beneath will be great for the shiner tank.  

 

Also Beeker, ramshorns do not eat healthy plant matter.  They eat dead bits and melty bits.  It's possible your plants weren't doing as well as you thought haha.  Pond snails, however, always eat live plants.  Always.  Maybe you're thinking of bladder snails?

 

I still don't know what kind of snails to get for the tanks though :/  If I do get darters for the shiner tank, I guess I'll end up with no snails haha.  But the sunfish tank will really benefit from them.  It's going to be stuffed full of plants and fish, and a cleanup crew would be great.



#8 gerald

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 04:37 PM

The discussion of Beeker's snails has been moved to a new thread:

http://forum.nanfa.o...amshorn-snails/

 

Some of the moved posts may also contain info pertinent to Junebug's substrate questions.

My apologies if the remaining posts above seem to have some gaps in the discussion.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#9 junebug

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 05:59 PM

Thanks Gerald!  I'm sure we'll be able to figure it out haha.  

 

Anyway, are there any snails native to the US that won't murder my plants?  Or should I just have some "pest snails" and let it go at that?

 

I probably should note, I'm going to be keeping amphipods and blackworms in the tanks as well, as a food source and also to break down waste for plant use.



#10 gerald

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 06:17 PM

"Most" N. Amer Planorbis, Physa and Lymnaea should be OK with plants -- just don't get any from Beeker -- he trains them to kill |;>)  Amphipods and blackworms can provide similar function so you dont really need snails.  (But you'll need a LOT of 'pods/worms if you expect any to stay alive long enough to do anything useful).


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#11 junebug

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:38 AM

I am seeding the tank with them, or at least the amphipods, before I get any fish.  My hope is to get a strong colony of them going before I order the fish, then supplement when I get the fish, and add blackworms to the mix.  I'm sure plenty of worms will make it into the substrate, at least enough to start reproducing.

 

I know I don't need snails, I just like them haha.  

 

So, North American Ramshorns.... those would likely be the "pests" that come in on plants from tropical fish stores, yes?  Then I don't have to worry about it.  I have bazillions of them in my tanks, I'll just select some large ones and add them to the native tanks.

 

Also sorry, after I posted that, I saw that there's an invert forum here and posted a topic about snails, so this is officially a duplicate :/  Oh well.  LOL.



#12 strat guy

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:45 PM

I don't know about smaller species, but generally plants and sunfish do not mix. Unless they're floating plants. Anything with roots is going to get uprooted. *Especially* if you're going with soil under the sand. That's going to end up in the water column and have fun with that mess. :)  Second... if you're going with soil and a sump... your plants are going to have a hard time. "Heavily planted" aquariums require very little bio filtration and the bacteria in sumps with refugiums compete against the plants for nutrients. Especially in a soiled, "low-tech" tank. If you're using high light and dosing nutrients, not so much of a problem.

 

If you do soil... make sure you do it right, research like crazy, maybe read Diana Walstad's book cover to cover. The nutrient load in a soiled tank is huge unless unless you stuff it with plants from the get go. Your planted tank will be planted with algae after about a week if you don't.  :blink:

 

Pea gravel is always a no-no in aquariums. The detritus falls between the cracks and builds up until you have a real issue. The large size doesn't lend to bacterial culture well so the stuff doesn't break down like it should.

 

The pest snails in aquariums are pond snails. Ramshorns come in from the wild. My pond is infested with them and they eat my plants to pieces, even tough, poisonous stuff like iris.


Edited by strat guy, 03 February 2015 - 05:51 PM.

120 low tech native planted - Blackstriped Topminnow, Central Stoneroller, Fathead minnow, Golden Shiner, Black chin shiner, Carmine Shiner, Emerald Shiner, Sand Shiner, Spotfin Shiner, Orangethroat darter, Johnny Darter, and Banded Darter.


#13 junebug

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 01:47 AM

I have 13 tropical NPTs, most of them with soil.  All of them are Walstad method.  I know how to do a dirted tank and never even planned on putting much biomedia in the sump.  It's going to be full of plants and have an algae scrubber.  A refugium doesn't house bacteria anyway, it houses plants and sometimes shrimp and such.  Considering this will be a 40 gallon tank that is very heavily stocked, I can and will happily use the 20 gallon sump to get the water volume where I need it to be to maintain the fish's health.  It won't be an issue with the plants considering the number of large fish I'm going to have in the tank, along with snails and shrimp.

 

I also said somewhere in there that I hadn't taken into account the sunfish digging and therefore, being reminded, wouldn't be dirting their tank.  I am planting it, however.  I can deal with uprooted plants now and then, and I know how to prevent it.  My little multies dig like crazy, repositioning their shells constantly, but haven't yet figured out how to uproot their plants.

 

Pea gravel is perfectly fine in aquariums.  The whole point of using it is to allow waste to fall into the cracks and decompose for use by the plants.  I may end up going with something finer grade due to the sunfish digging, as I don't want them injuring themselves on rougher gravel.  However gravel is easy enough to clean, you just need a siphon.

 

And if you really get true pond snails on your tropical plants, you're getting them from the wrong place O_O Mine come in with ramshorns and bladder snails, never pond snails.  I would lose my mind if a pond snail got into my aquariums and ate all my plants.  I mean that would be grounds for ripping the tank apart and bleaching everything before putting the fish back in.  I leave the bladders and ramshorns because they help decompose fish waste to make it more accessible to the plants.



#14 strat guy

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 08:29 PM

 

Pea gravel is perfectly fine in aquariums.  The whole point of using it is to allow waste to fall into the cracks and decompose for use by the plants.

 

Well, if it works for you, I guess don't fix it. :-s I would venture to say the general consensus among aquarium keepers is that pea gravel is too large. That's why most people now are turning to things like blasting sand and play sand for substrates. Smaller diameter than pea gravel and standard aquarium gravel, both of which are no good for planting.

 

 

And if you really get true pond snails on your tropical plants, you're getting them from the wrong place O_O Mine come in with ramshorns and bladder snails, never pond snails.  I would lose my mind if a pond snail got into my aquariums and ate all my plants.  I mean that would be grounds for ripping the tank apart and bleaching everything before putting the fish back in.  I leave the bladders and ramshorns because they help decompose fish waste to make it more accessible to the plants.

 

I think we have a difference in terminology. Here is what I call a ramshorn snail:

 

RamshornSnail.jpg

 

This is what I get in my pond. I get a billion of them and they eat everything in sight. Iris, Lillies, Cattail, Hornwart, Water Lillies, you name it. Tears them to shreds. I hate what they do to my water lilies. The full grown ones are a good centimeter to 13mm in diameter.

 

In the attached photo are two other snails. The top one is what I've always called a pond snail, or aquarium snail. They're harmless. They multiply, but get the right fish and they're snacks. I had some in my 30 that came in on some plants and my angelfish made quick work of them and their eggs. They get about 5mm at the max. When I think of "snails" in aquariums, the kind that multiply and everyone hates, this is what I think of.

 

The one on the bottom is also a ramshorn snail but I'm not sure what the heck it is. Looks to me more like a terrestrial snail I see around here under damp logs in the woods and in the soil after a good rain. They showed up after I decreased the water flow in my 100 and never went away. I had a real slack water problem and I got a massive outbreak of hydra, BGA, and these guys. The hydra and BGA are gone, but the snails stayed. They're all over the place. The biggest one I've seen is about 2mm though, small enough to be food for my flagfish. He loves them.  :D/

Attached Images

  • IMG_0878.jpg

120 low tech native planted - Blackstriped Topminnow, Central Stoneroller, Fathead minnow, Golden Shiner, Black chin shiner, Carmine Shiner, Emerald Shiner, Sand Shiner, Spotfin Shiner, Orangethroat darter, Johnny Darter, and Banded Darter.


#15 junebug

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:29 PM

What you have there is a big ramshorn, a bladder snail and a baby ramshorn.  I'm guessing something else is eating your plants, though, because ramshorns don't eat them unless they're already dying.  I have them in every one of my tanks save for one, and that's only because I happened to have to bleach all of the plants I put into that tank.

 

Regarding pea gravel, no idea where you're getting your info, but I'm a member of numerous groups and forums online and while some people tend to prefer sand, not everyone does.  Gravel is fine and much better for planting, as it allows the fish waste to get to the plant roots and fertilize more efficiently.  Sand makes root tabs necessary.



#16 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 11:47 PM

I think y'all just need to agree to disagree here... sand does not make root tabs necessary... and pea gravel is not always bad... 


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#17 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 12:10 AM

I think y'all just need to agree to disagree here... sand does not make root tabs necessary... and pea gravel is not always bad...


I agree.

The member formerly known as Skipjack


#18 Irate Mormon

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 09:19 PM

What about MTS? Especially with a soil substrate.  I love those guys.


-The member currently known as Irate Mormon


#19 Freshwater13

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 12:18 AM

I have two planted aquariums and in both I have a 2:1 mixture of Fluorite or Flora Max mixed with regular aquarium gravel. I works out great and gives it a good look. I've never used sand so I can't comment on that discussion.



#20 junebug

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 05:03 AM

What about MTS? Especially with a soil substrate.  I love those guys.

 

MTS aren't native to the US and therefore not suitable to a biotope with US fish.  And it looks like I'm not doing soil, I somehow managed to forget that sunfish are diggers/rearrangers of substrate.

Looks like it'll be riverbed sand with gravel planters :)





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