15 replies to this topic

[Betta132]

I have a 65g tank, moderately planted if you count duckweed, not too heavily decorated. It currently holds 9 blacktail shiners (numbers dropping, the big longear keeps eating the smallest ones) and 6 longear sunfish. One of the longears is nearly adult, four of them are about 3", and one is about 2". I caught the big guy about two weeks ago, and I've had the smaller ones for a bit over a week. 

When I caught the little guys, they were tinted nicely orange with white flecks, and a couple of them were very orange. They stayed like that for the entire transport, then faded to a more typical sunfish color of greyish-silver. A couple have a slight bit of orange, but that's it. They don't seem stressed or upset, they approach the glass to look at me and they're usually out in the open. 

Things that could be responsible:

 

Perhaps they're still stressed from capture and they need more time. 

 

Maybe they need more hiding spots? The tank is pretty sparse. It's been redecorated, and I'm trying to mimic the type of area sunnies inhabit in my local river. There aren't many plants, though the ground is covered in long algae in spots. The only real hiding spots (unless you're a teeny baby fish) are areas around large rocks, and there aren't many rocks. The area I was fishing from had one large boulder, a couple of small ones, and an area where the reeds overhang and hide the water. I have duckweed to suck the nitrates up and give some shade, and I have a twisty piece of wood and a glass jar to offer hiding places. 

I've attached a picture of the tank so you can see what I have. That's most of the tank, excluding the edges. The wood has slots for about three different sunfish, one on each side. The big sunny normally takes up one side, which leaves two or three spaces for the smaller ones to bolt into, and the jar can hold one or two. They can also tuck up behind the jar. The little guy has a small cave-thing under some twigs and plants on the left. They don't squabble over hiding spots, not that I can see. 

I have a football-sized bottle outside in a bucket to grow algae. There's a big hole in the side, and once I take a grinder to the edges, it can go into the tank to be another hiding spot. I plan to put it in the corner. 

Should I get another piece of twisty wood or something? 

 

Could aggression be the issue? The big sunny was a problem at first, but then I did a big water change and moved some stuff around. There was some squabbling for the rest of the day, but after that, everybody calmed down. The big guy lunges at anybody in his space, but he doesn't hurt them even if he catches them, he's not trying to bite. He just swims at them and chases them off, then goes back to his spot and sits. 

The little guys lunge at each other when they get too close together. The aggression seems to be fairly evenly distributed, no one fish looks like it's being picked on more than the others. The baby spends most of his time slinking around the edges, but he's growing fast and becoming more bold as his size starts to catch up.

There are a couple of torn fins from the initial territory squabbling, but no damage other than that.

This is about the level of aggression I was seeing in the river, so I don't think this is the issue, but it's worth mentioning. 

 

Maybe it's the diet? I have some cichlid sticks, but only the big guy will eat them. The smaller ones will bite the sticks, but then spit them out. I think I'm going to try breaking the sticks into pieces and soaking them with some shrimp. 

I've been feeding the little guys bloodworms, table shrimp, and the occasional bit of mixed frozen food. I think I have some mysis shrimp somewhere, but the big guy was easy to wean onto dry food and I was hoping the little guys would be similar. I didn't intend to depend on the frozen food. 

What would you suggest I offer? I could get some frozen krill or mysis, or maybe some mussels. If anybody has suggestions for a good color-boosting food, I'll take them, but I have a restriction. Due to severe allergies in the family, nothing with gluten is allowed in the house. No wheat, barley, oats, or rye. Took me a while to find these cichlid sticks. They're from yourfishstuff.com. 

Attached Files

•  Sunnies.png   509.3KB   2 downloads

[gerald]

They probably will not regain their color if they can never get more than a couple feet away from the big guy.  The hormones that boost color will remain suppressed by the constant close presence of a bigger male.  Hiding places and wood to break up lines of sight may help them feel more secure, but usually only one male in a tank that size will show full color.

[Betta132]

The problem I'm having is none of them are showing full color. I'm fine with only having one full-color sunny, as long as the rest are healthy, but even the big male just has a bit of orange. 

To be honest, I'm only about 80% certain this is a male. He was a bit brighter when I caught him, but I don't know how bright female longears can get. 

 Big sunny.png   280.24KB   0 downloads

The others are half his/her size, they can't possibly be an intimidation factor.

In other news, the entire tank thinks my camera lens is a giant fish eye. They all bolted when I moved the camera too fast.

Edited by Betta132, 23 March 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[shaft6977]

Try getting some New Life Spectrum Cichlid pellets. That food is designed to bring out the color in fish. I've been feeding mine that for about 4 months and the results have been nothing short of spectacular. They have them in different pellet sizes so you can find one that even the smaller ones can easily eat.

[shaft6977]

Here's a pic of some of them.

Attached Files

•  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1427150377.151237.jpg   290.2KB   3 downloads

[Betta132]

Those are some gorgeous fish, and I've heard really good things about that brand, but all their foods have wheat flour in them.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Gluten free fish food? Heck the water they swim in in the wild has pesticides, herbicides, etc. Would not worry too much about an imperfect fish food.

[Betta132]

It's not for the fish, my mom has severe celiac. Gluten isn't allowed in the house. If I had fish food with gluten in it, I would have to: 

Wash my hands very thoroughly after every feeding

Make sure the food never touches anything she might touch

Make sure the food dust never gets poofed into the air (gluten on mucus membranes can cause a reaction)

Make sure the tank water doesn't get on anything she might touch (nearly impossible considering I have a Python water changer and the water goes into the bathroom sink)

It's just not worth the trouble. I know this sounds like overkill, but our house has been gluten-free for about three years. When someone with celiac doesn't eat gluten for a while, their body gets even more sensitive to gluten. Even the tiniest bit can cause a reaction. 

Edited by Betta132, 23 March 2015 - 06:25 PM.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Wow, That makes much more sense. I get your reasoning now, and would do the same.  Live foods will help coloration, but what Gerald is saying has some merit too it as well. Darker gravel may help. I bet putting a background on the tank would help a lot as well. I imagine all but the most dominant male is trying to blend in with his surroundings. Without a background the fish probably feel like they are out in open water trapped in a cube. That will probably cause stress for quite some time.

[Betta132]

The substrate is black, but I've put a bunch of leaves in for appearance. I can't get it much darker without removing all the leaves, and I like how they look. 

The background idea might work... actually, they're more or less the color of the wall, when the wall behind them is seen through tannin-tinted water. I'll have to get a background of some kind. 

I should look up some tutorials on 3D in-tank backgrounds, so I can sculpt something with crevices that looks like the underhangs sunfish like. Most of the decor is just a bunch of sticks, so they're easy enough to move and I could install a fairly thin background with little trouble. 

I'll poke around on this, but does anybody have a link to a thread where a 3D background was made for the tank? 

 

What live foods does one feed sunfish? Mealworms? I can't collect outside bugs, we have a mosquito sprayer system. 

I currently have grindal worms and fruit flies, but both are too small for sunnies and fruit flies tend to crawl out. 

I will note that grindal worms are a great food for bettas. I have two regular fish store bettas and four B. Albimarginata (wild type), and they've all colored up beautifully since I started feeding grindal worms a couple times a week.

Edited by Betta132, 23 March 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[gerald]

Yes mealworms, crickets, earthworms, grasshoppers, cockroaches ...

[smbass]

Time will help too... It is quite common for sunfish to fade some right after capture. I feed almost entirely frozen foods with occasional live foods thrown in and get great color on tank raised fish and wild caught fish. They over six months or so will regain brighter colors if well cared for, but they may not be the same as when you caught them. Often blues do not return very well but reds and oranges become even more intense over time. Because of this strains of longears with a lot of red look really nice long term in an aquarium (like the one shaft6977 was showing above, that strain has a lot of red on mature males). From your photos your fish look rather similar to a strain I have worked with from along the Mississippi River flood plain which has a lot of red on the rear side of the males. When first sent to me they had a lot more blue/green but over time in a tank the male turned into this...

Male

 

Male

 

Female

 

Also don't worry about them occasionally taking out some blacktail shiners, they should be easy enough to replace and are one extremely widespread and common fish. Think of them as being very replaceable part of your tank to help you have more activity to make the sunfish feel comfortable. They likely will eat less of them as the sunfish become more reliant on you for food as well.

[Betta132]

I've removed the little shiners and put them in a warmer tank to grow. I know losses are basically inevitable, but I'd prefer to at least give them a decent chance by growing them out. I like the shiners. 

I left the bigger ones in the tank for dither fish. Also, I'm going to get some smaller hooks and catch the larger shiners I couldn't get before. The few larger ones I have were accidentally caught when I stuck my net under a waterfall to look for darters.

 

Good to know they'll probably color up later. I'll definitely work on a background for them, and since they don't really seem to like the pellets, it looks like their diet will be mostly frozen food. 

[gerald]

Brian that photo #2 makes me wonder whether some bluegill introgression may have gotten into the Mississippi River longear strain in years past.  That one even has side bars like a bluegill.

[Betta132]

The pale bars are a bluegill thing? Because two of my juvies show pale bars on their sides when in a confrontation. They look just like longears aside from that, though. They have the blue-green face squiggles, the light-colored trim around the ears, hints of orange on their stomachs, and no permanent stripes. They just get light-colored vertical bars for a bit when they're in aggressive mode. I'm quite certain they're at least mostly longear, but could they be part bluegill? There are definitely a bunch of blues in that river. 

If so, will that make them grow larger? Whenever I see big sunnies in that river, they have the solid blue-black ear of a bluegill.

[smbass]

Brian that photo #2 makes me wonder whether some bluegill introgression may have gotten into the Mississippi River longear strain in years past.  That one even has side bars like a bluegill.

 

It is interesting you would say that because I have always thought there are some odd characters in this form of longear that are quite different from others. I too have thought the blue/white along the lower jaw/gill covers is somewhat bluegill like. All indications though point to these not being a hybrid and the coloration is quite consistent from the southern tip of IL all the way down to the Gulf and expands westward more than east down along the gulf. I saw some photos of fish from SW Texas that looked like these to an extent but also looked like a completely different fish with a big bright orange patch on their side with darker head and darker rear portion of the side. Looked like a pattern I have seen on some south or central American cichlids. The head of those fish, blue lining the lower edge of the jaw/gill covers, and cross hatching appearance with edges of scales dark looked similar to these. Just the position and color of the "bright" color on the males was quite different.

 

I'm not sure where in TX these fish in this thread are from so they could be somewhat intermediate between what I am describing. I also don't know where the lines would be drawn to split these or if there are good places to draw them. Might just be a gradient of change with some areas colors and makings changing faster (shorter distance between forms in different drainage basins) and others it is more gradual over several drainage basins.

 

The bars you mention are not unique to this strain, male longears often get bars when they are in the spawning mood or being territorial, they come and go in an instant. I had not even noticed I captured that on that fish.