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Topeka Shiners in the (Sorta New) House!


18 replies to this topic

#1 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:42 PM

Out with the trout; in with the shiners...

http://www.fws.gov/m...ekashiners.html
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#2 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
  • Board of Directors
  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:49 PM

It's kinda funny that they say they are intolerant of turbid water but then they are a nest associate with o-spots?
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#3 Matt DeLaVega

Matt DeLaVega
  • Forum Staff
  • Ohio

Posted 27 March 2015 - 04:43 PM

That is odd. OSS are hand in hand with turbid water. One of the few fish that pops into my mind when I think of muddy water.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#4 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
  • Board of Directors
  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:43 PM

oh and anyone interested should definitely google or look up this shiner... great looking fish... sucks they are endangered


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 Evan P

Evan P
  • NANFA Guest
  • Knoxville, TN

Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:03 AM

Considering the ideal habitat for them is sloughs and oxbow lakes of the Mississippi, it's total bull to say they cannot tolerate turbidity. In fact, they prefer it! Sedimentation and pollution, however, are quite harmful. They are a major indicator species.


3,000-4,000 Gallon Pond Full of all sorts of spawning fishes! http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13811-3560-gallon-native-fish-pond/page-3 
 

#6 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 28 March 2015 - 04:47 AM

They may have needed to go over this a little better. I certainly needed to. I don't know enough about either species to pick up the turbidity issue. But on second perusal, I am pretty sure this isn't March 3015.
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#7 mattknepley

mattknepley
  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:12 AM

Here's more info from FWS which indicates the similar needs of O-spots and Topeka Shiners.
http://www.fws.gov/m...er13Story13.htm

It seems as if somebody quite unfamiliar with the species was tasked with writing the release in the op up, but nobody who was familiar with the fish proofed it. It reminds me of the back cover for an Animal Farm video I used to have. Henson (of Muppets fame) did the animal effects for it. But somebody who NEVER read the book, or saw the film they were doing the packaging/marketing for, must have written the description of the film. The parts I remember include; "Hilarity ensues when animals take over their farm..." and "...is sure to leave the whole family squealing with delight." If the people producing that packaging weren't clueless, they were sadists to an extreme degree looking to cause sleepless nights on end for any tyke unlucky enough to pop it in the vcr...
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#8 Matt DeLaVega

Matt DeLaVega
  • Forum Staff
  • Ohio

Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:06 AM

Gosh, maybe they should leave this business up to the pros and partner with CFI. Their crystal clear springfed raceways may just not work too well, and cost the taxpayer anyway.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#9 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
  • Board of Directors
  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:37 AM

I actually like the idea of repurposing unused facilities for creating non-native to help out a native in need.  But it does seem like they need some help.  Who are the NANFAns that are closest to them?  Lets send them Bob Muller and Ken Glakin and Brian Zimmerman between the three of them they can breed anything!


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#10 Matt DeLaVega

Matt DeLaVega
  • Forum Staff
  • Ohio

Posted 28 March 2015 - 09:09 AM

Oh I love the idea, but only if it well researched, staffed by the right people, and successful. If FWS does not realize that turbidity cannot possibly be the cause of their decline, then obviously it is not staffed by the right people or well researched.

 

 Or maybe the problem is that these shiners do like clear water and are only successful in the few places that there happen to be good populations of OSS in clear water. In which case FWS may have the right idea.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#11 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:20 PM

In streams degraded by erosion from land clearing and farming, elevated turbidity (SUSPENDED particles that dont settle easily) may not be a big deal, but it's often a symptom of elevated sedimentation (fine SETTLED particles clogging up the interstitial space in gravel) which can be devastating to gravel-spawners and the bugs they depend on.   Turbidity and sediment load are often lumped together for discussion, since both result from land clearing, but their ecological effects can be quite different.  Streams with natural high turbidity (from low-moderate erosion on clayey soils) dont necessarily have a high bedload of fine sediment. They may still have good patches of relatively clean gravel/coarse sand suitable for fish spawning.  The whole bed doesnt need to be free of fine sediment -- just enough area to provide sufficient breeding sites to keep the population going. 


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#12 Evan P

Evan P
  • NANFA Guest
  • Knoxville, TN

Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:11 PM

Gerald, you are absolutely right. Topeka Shiners are a huge topic where I live, and this seems to be the general idea. It's hard to find where populations could persist due to the fact that waters are often defined as simply turbid or clear, with little emphasis on sedimentation as being a seperate issue.
3,000-4,000 Gallon Pond Full of all sorts of spawning fishes! http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13811-3560-gallon-native-fish-pond/page-3 
 

#13 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 29 March 2015 - 02:05 PM

State water quality monitoring programs are designed based on the Federal Clean Water Act, which (not surprisingly) focuses on water, not substrate.  Most agencies typically measure turbidity, which is easy, cheap, repeatable, and is a parameter that statisticians and lawyers can deal with.  Substrate embeddedness is a lot more work to measure, patchy (statistically troublesome), and less relevant for public water supply intakes, so it gets a lot less attention, especially in waters that don't support trout & salmon spawning.  


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#14 centrarchid

centrarchid
  • NANFA Guest

Posted 30 March 2015 - 10:03 AM

As far as the OSS and likely the Topeka Shiners are concerned, the habitats that support them well may have high turbidity but they are also shallow with good light penetration.  OSS I find on nest and otherwise are consistently in shallower water than other sunfishes.  They also do not avoid clear water when it is present so long as it is shallow.


Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.

#15 smbass

smbass
  • Board of Directors

Posted 30 March 2015 - 11:29 AM

I was not familiar with the Topeka Shiner so I looked them up and found an old report of a NANFA outing on our own site where some were caught in 1997. They also caught longear sunfish. Longears certainly prefer clearer water than orangespotted so maybe it is not so much the requirements of the shiner poorly understood but just the wrong host sunfish species... In all likelihood either sunfish species will work under the appropriate conditions. 

 

As a side note that old trip report from 97 had a funny doctored photo of a rainbow darter and a bluntnose minnow using a seine to catch the people on the collecting trip. Also a giant crayfish in the background, maybe coming down the stream to decide which person was pretty enough to keep and which should be thrown back... http://www.nanfa.org...ks/kanscoll.htm


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#16 olaf

olaf
  • NANFA Member

Posted 30 March 2015 - 09:28 PM

Look for lots of Topeka Shiner action in the next issue of AC in a few weeks.
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#17 Josh Blaylock

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  • Central Kentucky

Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:20 PM

As a side note that old trip report from 97 had a funny doctored photo of a rainbow darter and a bluntnose minnow using a seine to catch the people on the collecting trip. Also a giant crayfish in the background, maybe coming down the stream to decide which person was pretty enough to keep and which should be thrown back... http://www.nanfa.org...ks/kanscoll.htm

 

That's a great photo, perhaps should be the NANFA logo, lol.

 

I do question your ID, I'd say that's E. spectabile. 


Josh Blaylock - Central KY
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#18 BenCantrell

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  • San Diego, CA

Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:26 PM

I do question your ID, I'd say that's E. spectabile. 

 

Think so?  The dark saddles at the front and back of the first dorsal fin look like rainbow to me.  The red dots on the scales on the side toward the rear look like rainbow as well.



#19 Josh Blaylock

Josh Blaylock
  • Board of Directors
  • Central Kentucky

Posted 01 April 2015 - 07:18 AM

 

Think so?  The dark saddles at the front and back of the first dorsal fin look like rainbow to me.  The red dots on the scales on the side toward the rear look like rainbow as well.

 

I do.  Also the trip report doesn't show any rainbows being caught, only Orangethroats.


Josh Blaylock - Central KY
NANFA on Facebook - NANFA on YouTube - NANFA on Google+

KYCREEKS - KRWW - KWA



I hope to have God on my side, but I must have Kentucky.

- Abraham Lincoln, 1861




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