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Ich?!?


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#1 Crazyblade1209

Crazyblade1209
  • NANFA Guest
  • Limington, Maine

Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:41 AM

So Im still new to keeping native fish and I'm having an issue with what I've Identified as ich. Im very confused as to why my fish are getting it. I recently upgraded my tank to a 20 gallon with a 30 gallon filter, and most of my fish are thriving. I had a catfish and a yellow perch that both died of ich. The catfish was pretty much the day after I got him so I think he got if from the amount of stress adapting to a tank. My yellow perch on the other hand seemed to be thriving in the 20 gallon for about a week. The other contents of my tank are: 1 very small ~2 inch sunfish, 2 ~1 inch Suckers, and 1 ~1 inch creek chub. 



#2 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:26 AM

Wild fish often carry low-levels of ich that you cant see, and when placed in a confined space, especially in a setup that has not been running a long time, it can quickly spread and kill them.  My guess is your tank is still in the "new-tank-syndrome" stage and you need to run it for a month or two with just a few fish before adding more.  I hoped you moved the cycled filter from the old  tank to the new tank.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#3 Mrfipp

Mrfipp
  • NANFA Guest
  • Runaway Bay, Texas

Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:30 AM

Ich is a protozoan parasitic infection. It's not caused by stress, etc, but rather introduced to the tank somehow (new fish, plants, rock, etc). Once you have ich in your tank, it's difficult to successfully treat because of the life cycle of the protozoa. Basically they enter the fish and then go through a stage of development, then exit the fish, and start over. It causes an increase in mucous in response to the physical wounds, lowers a fish's ability to get oxygen and circulate water through its body. Mortality rate of untreated fish is basically 100%. You can successfully treat, but the odds are against you because the ich cycle is very quick. There's a ton of information (and misinformation) on ich with a simple google search, but basically you need to interrupt the life cycle for a long enough duration to kill off the protozoa or use chemicals to destroy them. The white spots you see in the fish are only a percentage of the ich actually in the tank.

I'd recommend that you remove all of your seemingly healthy fish to a quarantine tank, remove your infected fish to a second quarantine tank, and treat both quarantine tanks as the product you choose directs. I'd buy a good, quality treatment. It'll likely not be the cheapest option. You may want to treat your main tank in addition, with no fish in it. Otherwise you'll reintroduce healthy hosts before the ich has died off.
On a side note, don't treat invertebrates like snails and crustaceans as the treatment usually kills them.
There's something fishy about this place...

#4 Crazyblade1209

Crazyblade1209
  • NANFA Guest
  • Limington, Maine

Posted 21 May 2015 - 09:45 AM

Wild fish often carry low-levels of ich that you cant see, and when placed in a confined space, especially in a setup that has not been running a long time, it can quickly spread and kill them.  My guess is your tank is still in the "new-tank-syndrome" stage and you need to run it for a month or two with just a few fish before adding more.  I hoped you moved the cycled filter from the old  tank to the new tank.

I did move the filter, and Its been a while since it happened but I was thinking about it and decided to ask about it. But I started it with 1 sucker and 1 creek chub. The next week I added my sunfish and the second sucker as well as the perch

 

 

Ich is a protozoan parasitic infection. It's not caused by stress, etc, but rather introduced to the tank somehow (new fish, plants, rock, etc). Once you have ich in your tank, it's difficult to successfully treat because of the life cycle of the protozoa. Basically they enter the fish and then go through a stage of development, then exit the fish, and start over. It causes an increase in mucous in response to the physical wounds, lowers a fish's ability to get oxygen and circulate water through its body. Mortality rate of untreated fish is basically 100%. You can successfully treat, but the odds are against you because the ich cycle is very quick. There's a ton of information (and misinformation) on ich with a simple google search, but basically you need to interrupt the life cycle for a long enough duration to kill off the protozoa or use chemicals to destroy them. The white spots you see in the fish are only a percentage of the ich actually in the tank.

I'd recommend that you remove all of your seemingly healthy fish to a quarantine tank, remove your infected fish to a second quarantine tank, and treat both quarantine tanks as the product you choose directs. I'd buy a good, quality treatment. It'll likely not be the cheapest option. You may want to treat your main tank in addition, with no fish in it. Otherwise you'll reintroduce healthy hosts before the ich has died off.
On a side note, don't treat invertebrates like snails and crustaceans as the treatment usually kills them.

I had read on a website it was from stress, that just reinforces don't believe everything on the internet haha. Its been a couple weeks and none of the other fish seem to be affected. I don't even think I added the catfish before I noticed his. The yellow perch I quarantined when it started acting weird, darting around sideways and such. Don't know if that was an affect of the ich but I noticed the ich a few days later.



#5 littlen

littlen
  • NANFA Member
  • Washington, D.C.

Posted 21 May 2015 - 10:56 AM

Mrfipp is correct on some of his points---ich is not caused by stress.  If there is no ich in a system, it cannot spontaneously pop up--even if there is a stress event.  But when it is already present, the addition of new, highly stressed & immunocompromised fish allows it to flourish.  

I tend to disagree with ich being difficult to treat.  I have no problem ridding temperate and tropical FW fish of ich.  Most OTC meds are copper based.  I have access to formalin and tend to use it as it is just as effective.  Of course knowing the proper dosage of either chemical and the sensitivity of the infected fish is very important.  It is true that the encysted parasite (the white spot you see on your fish) is not what you are treating when you medicate your tank.  You are treating/killing the free-swimming stage(s) of the parasite---trophont/tomites.  Increasing temp speeds up the life cycle such that the cyst ruptures faster and the newly released trophonts can be killed by the meds.

Very lightly infected fish are not in immediate danger.  When you see them totally covered with white spots, looking like someone sprinkled a healthy amount of salt on them, is when they are in trouble.  (This is when you usually see clamped fins, irregular swimming and behavior).   Ich is easy to spot when you know what to look for and treatment can begin way before you get a heavy infection.  I have seen very light infections clear up on their own without any medication.  Population density was low, and water parameters were immaculate.    But as gerald said, stressed fish, in a potentially over-stocked tank with inadequate water quality allows an ich outbreak to bloom.

I recommend treating your entire tank, leaving all the fish where they are.  Even though some of the fish seem to be unaffected, there is a good chance they are still carrying a small amount of the parasites on them.  Why treat multiple tanks when the parasite will still be in the environment of the original tank when you return all the fish?  Depending on what you choose to treat with, increased water changes (and redosing your med) are going to help.  Mrfipp is right that a lot of the meds used to treat fish will kill inverts.  Copper is deadly to them.  Plants are also not a huge fan of copper or formalin as well.

If you are hesitant using meds, possibly due to having some beloved inverts and/or plants....I would recommend increasing the temperature and adding salt.  The amount will be dependent on the species.  Some of the plants may also disapprove of salt as well.  

The good news is there are options, and a lot of them.  The deaths you had may have been in part, due to ich.  However there may have been some acclimation issues.  I only say that because most catfish are pretty hardy and can handle a lot of stress.  But if it was moved into a tank with a lot of ammonia from another tank that had none, you could have accidentally killed it that way.  But the fact that you are seeing ich means that the parasite needs to be addressed and removed for sure.


Nick L.

#6 Crazyblade1209

Crazyblade1209
  • NANFA Guest
  • Limington, Maine

Posted 21 May 2015 - 11:51 AM

Mrfipp is correct on some of his points---ich is not caused by stress.  If there is no ich in a system, it cannot spontaneously pop up--even if there is a stress event.  But when it is already present, the addition of new, highly stressed & immunocompromised fish allows it to flourish.  

I tend to disagree with ich being difficult to treat.  I have no problem ridding temperate and tropical FW fish of ich.  Most OTC meds are copper based.  I have access to formalin and tend to use it as it is just as effective.  Of course knowing the proper dosage of either chemical and the sensitivity of the infected fish is very important.  It is true that the encysted parasite (the white spot you see on your fish) is not what you are treating when you medicate your tank.  You are treating/killing the free-swimming stage(s) of the parasite---trophont/tomites.  Increasing temp speeds up the life cycle such that the cyst ruptures faster and the newly released trophonts can be killed by the meds.

Very lightly infected fish are not in immediate danger.  When you see them totally covered with white spots, looking like someone sprinkled a healthy amount of salt on them, is when they are in trouble.  (This is when you usually see clamped fins, irregular swimming and behavior).   Ich is easy to spot when you know what to look for and treatment can begin way before you get a heavy infection.  I have seen very light infections clear up on their own without any medication.  Population density was low, and water parameters were immaculate.    But as gerald said, stressed fish, in a potentially over-stocked tank with inadequate water quality allows an ich outbreak to bloom.

I recommend treating your entire tank, leaving all the fish where they are.  Even though some of the fish seem to be unaffected, there is a good chance they are still carrying a small amount of the parasites on them.  Why treat multiple tanks when the parasite will still be in the environment of the original tank when you return all the fish?  Depending on what you choose to treat with, increased water changes (and redosing your med) are going to help.  Mrfipp is right that a lot of the meds used to treat fish will kill inverts.  Copper is deadly to them.  Plants are also not a huge fan of copper or formalin as well.

If you are hesitant using meds, possibly due to having some beloved inverts and/or plants....I would recommend increasing the temperature and adding salt.  The amount will be dependent on the species.  Some of the plants may also disapprove of salt as well.  

The good news is there are options, and a lot of them.  The deaths you had may have been in part, due to ich.  However there may have been some acclimation issues.  I only say that because most catfish are pretty hardy and can handle a lot of stress.  But if it was moved into a tank with a lot of ammonia from another tank that had none, you could have accidentally killed it that way.  But the fact that you are seeing ich means that the parasite needs to be addressed and removed for sure.

Thank you very much, I do have some crayfish but they are in my bait tank 



#7 NotCousteau

NotCousteau
  • NANFA Guest
  • Minnesota

Posted 21 May 2015 - 01:49 PM

I started my first native tank last spring. It was also my first tank in years. There had been no fish in my home or with any of the equipment or decorations. At this point, I only had sand and rocks. I did not even have any live plants yet.

 

I brought my wild-caught fish home, put them in the cycled tank and immediately saw that  a few of them had white, ich-like spots on them. I couldn't believe it! Coldwater native fish with ich?! In a completely new, untouched fish tank?! I had inspected them in the field and noticed no blemishes at that time, so I was completely shocked.

 

It certainly looked like ich, although I guess I can't be 100% sure. I treated it with salt (using directions I found online), and conducted daily water changes. It cleared up pretty quickly with no fatalities, which made me wonder if it was truly ich or not. I've dealt with ich in tropical fish, and it seemed to stick around longer that time.

 

Good luck to you.



#8 predatorkeeper87

predatorkeeper87
  • NANFA Guest
  • pennsylvania

Posted 29 May 2015 - 05:49 AM

In my honest opinion, ich is the easiest infection you will ever treat in fish.  I have the best luck with seachem paraguard.  Its easy on scaleless fish and plants, and clears up an ich infestation within a week in most cases.  Couple that treatment with a good dose of salt to your aquarium and it shouldn't last more than 7 days.  Paraguard is a reducing agent as well so it  won't be active in your tank for more than 24 hours roughly, meaning even if it does stress a fish in the tank, its effects will gradually diminish over time, giving any stressed fish a break.  Its not an expensive treatment either by any means. 





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