18 replies to this topic

[NotCousteau]

This fish was caught in Pickerel Lake in St. Paul, Minnesota. The lake is known to have pumpkinseed but also other and hybrid sunfish.

I'm terrible at IDs and just wanted confirmation from the experts here. This is a full pumpkinseed, right?

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[butch]

Its a green hybrid.

[NotCousteau]

Thanks, Butch. What telltale signs of the green sunfish do you see in this one?

[Evan P]

Mouth, eye, and body shape set it off for me. Honestly, I think it's probably just a normal Green.

[butch]

Mouth, eye, and body shape set it off for me. Honestly, I think it's probably just a normal Green.

Not normal green. It has mottled patterns in both anal and dorsal fins.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I agree with Butch here, but where do you draw the line. This fish does not appear to be a green F1. It appears to be an F2 from a green back cross. Makes it 75% green sunfish in my mind. So mostly green sunfish, what do you call it? Not a green-seed at this stage of the game?

[NotCousteau]

Thanks for all of the great input, everyone. That's why I come here.

[butch]

I agree with Butch here, but where do you draw the line. This fish does not appear to be a green F1. It appears to be an F2 from a green back cross. Makes it 75% green sunfish in my mind. So mostly green sunfish, what do you call it? Not a green-seed at this stage of the game?

Unfortunately we have no proof that this hybrid is a F2. It looks like a F1 to me since this cross is very common in many waters. If it is a F2, they will looks like a straight green or straight pumpkinseed with very little hints of being hybrid. F2 hybrids are very rare and uncommon in the wild, or at least in my area.

[centrarchid]

F1 green by pumpkin would look very much like fish shown.  F2 of bluegill  involved with backcross to  green.

[Evan P]

I agree with Matt. I have seen several Green x Pumpkinseeds, some of which were very obviously F1s, and they certainly didn't look like that. I see what you mean with the mottling in the fins, but it would have to be an F2. This is a Green x Pumpkinseed I found, but it could be an F2 with a second Pumpkinseed.

 

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[Matt DeLaVega]

It really gets virtually impossible to figure out these fishes lineage. Centrarchid has a bit of an advantage though as he creates some of these hybrids. Even then there are so many variables. The sex of the parent species can influence the phenotype of the offspring. F2 from parent fish that were hybrids can be variable. They can favor one or the other parent species.

[butch]

I agree with Matt. I have seen several Green x Pumpkinseeds, some of which were very obviously F1s, and they certainly didn't look like that. I see what you mean with the mottling in the fins, but it would have to be an F2. This is a Green x Pumpkinseed I found, but it could be an F2 with a second Pumpkinseed.
 
DSCN1561.JPG

Again, it looks like a F1 green x pumpkinseed to me. F1 hybrids are so variable even in same batch. The first pic is indeed a F1 hybrid.

[butch]

It really gets virtually impossible to figure out these fishes lineage. Centrarchid has a bit of an advantage though as he creates some of these hybrids. Even then there are so many variables. The sex of the parent species can influence the phenotype of the offspring. F2 from parent fish that were hybrids can be variable. They can favor one or the other parent species.

I think you have forget about the hybrid has a limited reproduction in the wild. F2 hybrids are so rare and I once sampled a F2 hybrid green x bluegill out of thousands of hybrids I encountered over years on various sites.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I have proof in my pond if you call that wild. It is 1/4 acre. I did stock greengills. No green sunfish. After 5 years now I have fish that are indistinguishable from pure green sunfish. Unless they came in on heron legs, the hybrids have largely played out into their parent species. This could happen elsewhere I am sure. More likely in small ponds and lakes, but it does happen. Greengills for instance are not sterile, they simply breed less because they are mostly one sex. Hybrids do not breed true, so as they play out, like breeds with like and you end up with something near the more plastic parent species, a bunch of green sunfish. There really is no other way for green sunfish to get into my pond. Only yards drain into it. I have heard the same story many times on pond management forums as well. It takes many generations of selective breeding to stabilize a hybrid, be it plant or animal.

 

  I do not want to argue about this, it is not worth it, and there is no way to prove that any one of us is correct. Hybrids are just that. Without genetic testing it is all speculation and educated guesses. We must agree to disagree.

[butch]

I have proof in my pond if you call that wild. It is 1/4 acre. I did stock greengills. No green sunfish. After 5 years now I have fish that are indistinguishable from pure green sunfish. Unless they came in on heron legs, the hybrids have largely played out into their parent species. This could happen elsewhere I am sure. More likely in small ponds and lakes, but it does happen. Greengills for instance are not sterile, they simply breed less because they are mostly one sex. Hybrids do not breed true, so as they play out, like breeds with like and you end up with something near the more plastic parent species, a bunch of green sunfish. There really is no other way for green sunfish to get into my pond. Only yards drain into it. I have heard the same story many times on pond management forums as well. It takes many generations of selective breeding to stabilize a hybrid, be it plant or animal.
 
  I do not want to argue about this, it is not worth it, and there is no way to prove that any one of us is correct. Hybrids are just that. Without genetic testing it is all speculation and educated guesses. We must agree to disagree.

Totally completely different environments (stocked vs natural). You can arguing anything you wanted, but the F2 hybrids are still uncommon occurrence out in the wild and the pictures of fish in question, looks like a F1 green x pumpkinseed hybrid.

[centrarchid]

Some hybrids I have made are essentially sterile on the male side.  The greens x pumpkinseed are a good example.  Females did show fertility but hatch was very low.  Second generation hybrids had to either be a backcross to a parent species or a third species.  The fertility issue may vary with populations used in cross.  I do think it takes more than 5 generations / year for a hybrid population to shuffle itself into two apparent discrete populations when based on only F1's. 

[Betta132]

I'm not an expert in sunfish genetics by any means, but that's definitely more than 50% green. Pumpkinseeds tend to be more speckled and a bit taller-bodied. Also, that's definitely a green-sunny-sized mouth.

[centrarchid]

What is needed is a series of similar sized examples of the parental species from the same location. Fish need to be laid out on side for uniform aspect in photographs.

[butch]

Some hybrids I have made are essentially sterile on the male side.  The greens x pumpkinseed are a good example.  Females did show fertility but hatch was very low.  Second generation hybrids had to either be a backcross to a parent species or a third species.  The fertility issue may vary with populations used in cross.  I do think it takes more than 5 generations / year for a hybrid population to shuffle itself into two apparent discrete populations when based on only F1's. 

Throw predators in the mix and you'll almost have no surviving fry from the hybrids.