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Pteronotropis woes


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#1 Kanus

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 06:40 PM

So this is a really sad topic for me, but I'd like to hopefully see if anyone has any ideas for me.

 

I've gone down towards the Gulf coast twice this past year and have collected and brought home various Pteronotropis species to attempt to keep (and hopefully breed!) as captives. I've been having really terrible luck and I'm not sure what the problem is. I've had problems with every species I've tried to keep. At first, at least for Flagfins, acidifying the water and adding some blackwater extract seemed to help. I managed to keep 3 adults alive which were actually spawning (though I never got any fry to survive to swim-up).

 

Last month I traveled to AL and collected more flagfins, some sailfins (to augment the single survivor from my previous trip, though I had some that survived several months before all dying within a few days of each other with no apparent symptoms), and also some Apalachee, Orangetail, and Broadstripe. They all did exceedingly well with collection and transport, but I began to have problems once I got home with them. They were all slowly (over the course of several days) acclimated to my local water conditions (that are about average in every way) and put in tanks. The flagfins were added to my existing flagfins, and I lost every single fish within about 3 days (including my spawning adults that had survived for 8 months in my aquarium). Sailfins didn't do much better, but I currently have a single individual from this recent trip along with a single individual that I brought home in February.

 

Overall, I've seen no apparent symptoms. If anything, they seem a bit listless. They reluctantly eat but do not smash food like I'm familiar with most Cyprinids (including the Pteronotropis that seemed to be "survivors"). I feed them frozen brine/mysis, flake, and baby brine shrimp. They eat all of them, but lack any kind of enthusiasm for doing so. I currently still have surviving Orangetails and Apalachee shiners, but I seem to lose one every day or two, and again, with no real apparent symptoms.

 

Does anyone have any ideas? There are other fish in the tank that seem to be doing alright. There's no aggression, no ragged fins, nothing like that. I've attempted dosing Paraguard and Maracyn Oxy with no positive result.

 

I'm totally at a loss (as I sit here and watch one of my adult Orangetail shiners that just lost the ability to orient himself and is now tumbling around the tank...beautiful as he is...)

 

Any advice is GREATLY appreciated. Otherwise Pteronotropis might just be to me what warpaint shiners are to Josh B.

 

 


Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

Enchanting Ectotherms

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#2 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 09:25 PM

I sucked at Pt. welaka for sure. Blame it on taking terminal males or my ridiculously high pH. Either way I blew it. Several months all seemed good then death.


The member formerly known as Skipjack


#3 smbass

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:23 PM

I have kept a few different species and have been most successful with Pt. welaka. I have kept several others and noticed that larger individuals often do not last real long in captivity, maybe only a few months. So when I have collected wild fish it is better to collect the smallest young you can and grow them up in your conditions. I just don't think any of these are very long lived. I currently have a tank full of all my adult breeder welaka from this past summer that are all F1s and they are gradually fading away, not many deaths yet but I suspect they will begin kicking off soon... been thinking I should just preserve them or use them as feeders rather than watch them slowly die. On the other hand all their tiny progeny from this year are doing great and feeding well. So maybe it is not you, maybe it is just age and not very long lived fish. The other species I have worked with some is signipinis and I had trouble with the larger ones but the small ones did well for me in a tank. I tried moving them outdoors but they did poorly in that setting and I'm not sure exactly why. I would really like to get some more young signipinis to try again.


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#4 Kanus

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 10:39 PM

Unfortunately my problems include smaller fish as much as large ones. In general I targeted half-grown fish to collect in preference to large adults. I'm not sure what part of the equation I'm missing, but surely I have to be doing something wrong. Especially after having seen Sailfins in small blackwater creeks as well as in spring runs, I sorta figured that dropping the ph and adding tannins wasn't that important (except maybe for the flagfins).

 

Unless they have some kind of pathogen, I am totally at a loss.


Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

Enchanting Ectotherms

My Personal Facebook (mostly fish related, if you'd like to add me)


#5 littlen

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:35 AM

Derek, I don't really have any insightful info for you, but am thinking from the bottom up.....eliminating what it might NOT be.....

Having only worked with a small group of 2.1 P. welaka I have virtually no experience with any of the Pt.'s. But my 2cents are that with any shiner/fish....you usually see a slow deterioration as they die naturally of old age. They eat less, wither away, and eventually die. This tumbling that you see in one of your Orangetails is what I base my suspicions on. That, plus the random deaths as opposed to seeing a gradual decline.

Continuing my theory, the fact that the fish look completely healthy when they die reduces the chances of it being some sort of infection IMO. Not having worked with any of the larger species, I have no idea what their behaviors are like, and leads to a wild guess that maybe it is a space related issue? Perhaps they are a very flighty group of fish and you're just not noticing them slamming into the glass at random times? That, plus them possibly being easily stressed [in captivity] would lead to sudden deaths.

It just doesn't add up, like you've said, how established fish die after doing fine for several months when you brought a new group home. That's why I suspect [internal] trauma.

What are your tank sizes/fish densities? I know you probably don't have the ability to run a battery of tests manipulating those factors but it would be interesting to see if 3-4 fish in a 125/150 survive better or longer than twice as many in a tank 1/2 that size.

Sorry this is so frustrating. Especially since you have to travel so far to get them. Don't give up. Maybe you can add to 'the book' of keeping/breeding this group once we figure it out.
Nick L.

#6 Evan P

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:14 PM

Derek, just throwing a few ideas out there, because I don't have any experience with Pteronotropis, but what are you feeding them? Some Cyprinids definitely seem to benefit from veggies in their diet.*EDIT: I missed the section about what you are feeding them. Maybe try to get some veggies in their diet.* If you're interested, I can give you a recipe for some stuff that has brought back some minnows from the brink of death and given them another year or so. Also, have you tried keeping the salinity up a bit? Beyond even immune response, I have noticed several Cyprinids that really just seem to prefer some salt in their water. 


3,000-4,000 Gallon Pond Full of all sorts of spawning fishes! http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13811-3560-gallon-native-fish-pond/page-3 
 

#7 Kanus

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:38 PM

I've tried salt a bit, but I guess I had phased it out a bit since acclimating them to tanks, so that could be a possible link. I'll start with that.

 

Your idea about veggies could definitely have merit too. I feed high quality saltwater flake food, so even that has pretty minimal veggie content. I would LOVE more information on how to incorporate some green stuff into their diet. Probably would be good for all my other fish too. I've tried feeding things like Emerald Entree (SF Bay Brand frozen stuff) and they have always eaten the brine shrimp and spit out the green stuff. I got tired of having little bits of uneaten spinach (or whatever) floating around the tank and stopped trying to use it.


Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

Enchanting Ectotherms

My Personal Facebook (mostly fish related, if you'd like to add me)


#8 Sean Phillips

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:40 PM

Maybe they're simply not a hardy genus of Cyprinids. I've had a trio of P. welaka since early May and they're doing great so far though. Eating flake, mysis, and bloodworms living with central Mudminnows, angelfish, and a bristlenose Pleco. I tried to spawn them a few times with no luck so now they're just pretty, expensive display fish.
Sean Phillips - Pine Creek Watershed - Allegheny River Drainage

#9 Kanus

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:44 PM

littlen,

 

My initial stocking densities were pretty high because I brought back extra fish with the hopes of sharing with others (I still owe someone 8 of these grandipinnis if I can get them to stop dying long enough to make shipping feasible). They are pretty moderately stocked right now though.

 

I sorta have to doubt they are hurting themselves because Pteronotropis are about the most relaxed cyprinids I've ever seen. When collecting them, I use a dipnet rather than a seine. They just sit there. And if you swipe the net at them and don't get them, they typically return to the exact same spot within 10 seconds. They basically beg to be caught. They don't act anything like a typical shiner in this regard. Incredibly laid-back fish.

 

Maybe they do show signs of disease and I am just used to really obvious stuff. Besides the listlessness, they do sorta get a "dull" or "shabby" look to them sometimes. Maybe not quite like excess slime production, but they do sometimes just sorta give the appearance of "failure to thrive."


Derek Wheaton

On a mountain overlooking the North Fork Roanoke River on one side, the New River Valley on the other, and a few minutes away from the James River watershed...the good life...

Enchanting Ectotherms

My Personal Facebook (mostly fish related, if you'd like to add me)


#10 littlen

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:23 PM

Very perplexing.....

What about temp requirements?  Are even your ambient temps too warm?  Too cold?  I doubt it, but just thinking out loud.  

 

Too many nitrates in the tank?

Try playing them some Michael Buble holiday classics.  Otherwise I'm stumped.


Nick L.

#11 fundulus

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 07:32 PM

I would suggest trying reverse osmosis water with blackwater extract added. You probably have too many dissolved solids in your local water to allow real acidification. I don't know if you have access to VT RO water in a lab, which would make it much easier.
Bruce Stallsmith, Huntsville, Alabama, US of A

#12 gerald

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 11:50 AM

Just a wild guess but maybe Ptero's carry an intestinal parasite that causes no significant disease in the wild, but multiplies and overwhelms them in captivity.  If you're not seeing any respiratory distress, it's probably not a gill disease.  Since the main symptom is appetite loss, it makes me think it's likely be a gut bug.  If Paraguard didn't help, other meds that might be worth trying are Prazipro, Flubendazole, or Naladixic acid.  Would be good to get a few of these into a fish vet's lab during the early onset of symptoms.   The longer you wait, other opportunistic parasites and bacteria will be moving in and obscuring the original problem.

 

If other soft-water shiners are doing well in your water, then I doubt it's a water chemistry issue.  A few shiner species tolerate ultra-soft acidic water (and may have a competitive advantage there), but I doubt any of them really need it for physiological reasons in captivity.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#13 loopsnj64

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:42 PM

Maybe they're simply not a hardy genus of Cyprinids. I've had a trio of P. welaka since early May and they're doing great so far though. Eating flake, mysis, and bloodworms living with central Mudminnows, angelfish, and a bristlenose Pleco. I tried to spawn them a few times with no luck so now they're just pretty, expensive display fish.

 

How did you get bluenose shiners? so far the only fish in this genus that i could obtain are Pteronotropis signipinnis (flagfin shiners) and pteronotropis hypeslopterus (sailfin shiners), and those i can only get from online sources.


"All good things must come to an end, but bad things think thats rather dull, so they stick around long after their natural end has come"

-From an art book I read


#14 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 08:50 PM

Brian Zimmerman will have some for sale anytime if they aren't already spoken for. They also show up on aquabid from time to time. Otherwise it is a road trip or knowing the right person in the right place.

The member formerly known as Skipjack


#15 Irate Mormon

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 12:20 AM

As far as water quality, the streams I have tested were high pH (7. 8) and very low TDS.  That was using Hach meters, so YMMV.  I think you may need to give them live foods too.  Their lifespan is mostly limited to two breeding cycles. 

 

edit: That is seven point eight! 


-The member currently known as Irate Mormon


#16 mikez

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 05:39 PM

Derek my first batch of flagfin did great, only lost one egg bound female in a year. Last spring I added another batch from the same stream and I've been slowly losing them all including the old ones. I'm down to one pair left.

Two things were different last year from the year before.
1. I fed tons of frozen with variety first year, due to cost and life distraction the second year I fed mostly flake.
2. Also due to afore mentioned distraction, my husbandry fell off a bit. Not terrible, mollies and killies are thriving, but maybe enough drop off to affect the flagfins.

Now my prob is getting fry from the two remaining flagfin.
Mike Zaborowski
I don't know, maybe it was the roses.

#17 Mysteryman

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:27 AM

The Flagfins back home where I found them were all in water with a pH of 6.0-6.8, and very low hardness. The water was also very clean. They seem to prefer the headwater spring runs over the larger, muddier waters. In my tanks, they get the doldrums and start swimming in a distressed manner if I let the water go too long without a water change and it starts to get dirty. A water change later, though, they get perky again.

Water changes also make them spawn, by the way, especially if the new water is 1 degree colder than the tank water and of very low hardness, even distilled, to mimic rainwater. Keep them at 73-74F for best results.





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