10 replies to this topic

[WheelsOC]

Hi folks. Lurking around the forum for a while has really hooked me on the idea of keeping native fish over exotics. I'm getting my feet wet in fish keeping for the first time in way too long, after being on the fence for years.

 

I snagged a 56 gallon tank (30"L x 18"D x 25"H) for the price of gas to pick it up, and would like to stock it with some native temperate US fish and plants instead of the usual tropicals. My thinking is that a couple of small, hardy minnow species might be the most forgiving for a virtual beginner. If I can get them as feeders or bait, that's just a bonus layer of unconventional-ness (and cheap-itude) to enjoy.

 

For the general setup, I'm leaning towards a low-tech, unheated, Walstad-style planted tank with a soil underlayer and some coal slag to cap it. A small powerhead would provide water circulation and a nominal amount of filtration, but would mostly be for the plants rather than the fish.

 

For tenants, I'm thinking maybe 5-7 rosy red Pimephales promelas and 5-7 Cyprinella lutrensis. It would be nice to have the slim, orange rosy reds and the deeper-bodied, silvery blue red shiners for visual contrast with each other and all the greenery, and maybe even get to see their different breeding strategies with some flowerpot "caves" and crevices. From everything I've read they should be very compatible in terms of diet (mostly dried flake and such) and water parameters (since they're both so adaptable and share much of their native range).

Not sure if they're all that compatible in terms of behavior. Really it's the red shiners I wonder about. Would they be too "aggressive" to house with the rosy reds?

 

If I do go with these bait/feeder species, what's the best course of action for getting healthy specimens into my tank? I have a couple of creaky-but-not-leaky old ten gallon tanks that could do quarantine duty for a few weeks, if necessary. The rosy reds are stocked as feeders in every petshop around here (upstate South Carolina), but I haven't seen any red shiners as feeders or live bait.

[gzeiger]

Fieryblack shiners do well in captivity.

 

You have some very nice darters locally, but they need more than flake food. Commercial frozen foods are fine.

 

Quarantine is always a good practice for bait. They have been roughly handled before being dumped in those crowded unfiltered tanks.

 

Have you used coal slag before? That doesn't sound like something I would put in a tank.

 

SC's laws are pretty friendly. As long as you're not in designated trout waters you can net your own bait. There are some pretty neat fish there. If you can make it down by the coast, Bluefin killifish would do well in the setup you described. They also don't do well on flake though.

[Michael Wolfe]

You have yellowfin shiners in that area as well... they would do very nicely as a first fish for you.  And you can collect these yourself (which a lot of people think is more than half the fun).

[WheelsOC]

Fieryblacks were my first choice, actually! But I've sort of ruled them out because this stubby aquarium is going to be more of a slackwater tank with a lot of vegetation, and from what I've read fieryblacks like 1) current, 2) a lot of room, and 3) plenty of live foods. I thought Yellowfins were about the same, maybe needing even more current and fewer plants in their way to be happy, and that they prefer to have some chub nests to fully color up. So my understanding is that neither of those are really suited to the kind of tank I'm trying to build. I'd be glad to know that's not the case though!

Raising live foods is not really in the cards with my current housemates. The idea of breeding worms, flies, and beetles prompted quick and resounding negative responses. Thought about getting a colony of amphipods going in the tank itself but I've seen reports that they're very rough on plants. I'm sure the shiners and fatheads would help keep their numbers down, but I'm not so sure I want to chance it with my first tank in a couple of decades.

So the lack of live food is one of the reasons I'm leaning towards red shiners and rosy reds. They're supposed to be pretty darn catholic in their eating habits.

In terms of the substrate, I haven't used much of anything before other than rainbow colored plastic coated gravel. But coal slag is vitrified (i.e. turned into a kind of mineral glass) and that makes it inert in water, so toxic substances shouldn't be able to leach out. Radioactive nuclear waste is processed in a similar way to help keep it contained in a worst-case scenario. "Coal slag" sounds scary, but it's better known under the brand name Black Diamond blasting media and a lot of people have used it in lieu of more expensive black sand substrates with no apparent ill effects on their much more expensive fishes. Whereas a 20lb. bag of Tahitian Moon Sand can cost you $25, you can buy a hundred pounds of Black Diamond at Tractor Supply Company for $18.

[Irate Mormon]

Ditto what MW said.  Being a native aquarist isn't about buying fishes.  Just as the tropical fancier dreams of collecting in the Amazon basin, so the native aquarist is ever in search of the perfect collecting site.  Didn't find it?  Try again.  And again...and so, another NANFAn is born. 

[Michael Wolfe]

I disagree.  While these fish do live in flowing waters, they adapt very well to normal aquariums... sure, have a power head at one end, but they will be fine.  I keep yellowfins all the time (sometimes more than one aquarium full) and have kept fieryblacks in the past.  And both of these will eat flakes aggressively.

[gerald]

Not sure about SC, but in NC the red shiner (Cyprinella lutrensis) is on the "banned fishes" list due to its high potential for being invasive.  There's a hatchery near Greensboro that used to farm them years ago, and not surprisingly there are now several streams around the Triad area with feral red shiner populations, and they interbreed with native Cyprinellas.  All of the Cyprinella shiners can get pretty aggressive; think of them like tiger barbs.  Large groups do better than just a few.

[keepnatives]

I like your choices, red shiners are one of my top 150 natives.  They are active, colorful, and feed aggressively.  The rosy reds are hardy as well but I'd prefer the normal fathead minnows which though not brightly colored are still beautiful when males are in breeding condition and their breeding method is a contrast to the crevice spawning red shiners.  The male fathead cleans off the underside of a rock cave to invite a female to lay her eggs and then guards the area.  I've seen 2.5 inch fatheads chase scores of full size bluegills away with total abandon.  With a tall tank you could also add a killie or topminnow as well.  Black spotted or black stripes would do well.  I'd throw in a couple pairs of Orangespot sunfish  as well.   Actually you've inspired me if you do or don't do this I just might myself.

[WheelsOC]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I suspected I might have been overthinking things a bit and the voice of experience is what I'm after.

 

Not sure about SC, but in NC the red shiner (Cyprinella lutrensis) is on the "banned fishes" list due to its high potential for being invasive.  There's a hatchery near Greensboro that used to farm them years ago, and not surprisingly there are now several streams around the Triad area with feral red shiner populations, and they interbreed with native Cyprinellas.  All of the Cyprinella shiners can get pretty aggressive; think of them like tiger barbs.  Large groups do better than just a few.

I was wondering about that, but my Google-fu hasn't been able to turn up any information on their status in SC. Might need to contact the DNR on that one.

Re: aggression - "like tiger barbs" is pretty much how I've been thinking about them in terms of behavior, but having some confirmation on that is making me reconsider the stocking. Bigger groups diffuse aggression among more members and help keep them focused on conspecifics, so they'd be less likely to pick on anything else in the tank.

 

I'm trying to keep the stocking levels moderate since low-tech, Walstad-style setups like the one I'm going for don't handle large bioloads that well. The plants are supposed to handle the heavy lifting of waste removal and it's easy to overwhelm them.

The catch is that I'm also going for a community rather than species tank, and really do want to build the stock around some rosie reds in particular. If need be, I'm willing to cut their numbers down to 4-5 and up the number of Cyprinella (at least for the smaller species) if it means the lessening the chances of the rosies getting pushed around.

 

 

I like your choices, red shiners are one of my top 150 natives.

Clearly, an afishionado of very discriminating tastes! 

I did think about adding a trio of Fundulus chrysotus since they're relatively small, brightly colored, and easy to get ahold of. But in the interest of keeping the stocking light and bioload moderate I opted to focus on larger numbers of just two species that have more visual contrasts. Rosie reds would hold down the orange-yellow side of the spectrum while the red shiners would add some flashy steel-blue hues.  F. notatus would add some distinction with that big dark stripe. I'll reconsider some fundulids if the Cyprinella plan proves to be too much hassle.

 

I disagree.  While these fish do live in flowing waters, they adapt very well to normal aquariums... sure, have a power head at one end, but they will be fine.  I keep yellowfins all the time (sometimes more than one aquarium full) and have kept fieryblacks in the past.  And both of these will eat flakes aggressively.

I have read some of your yellowfin stories, it just seemed to me that a somewhat longer tank than mine with a river-type setup and active chub nests was the strong recommendation for them to be healthy, unstressed, and encourage them to fully color up. It is good to know that they're not so fussy as some materials make them out to be.

 

Ditto what MW said.  Being a native aquarist isn't about buying fishes.  Just as the tropical fancier dreams of collecting in the Amazon basin, so the native aquarist is ever in search of the perfect collecting site.  Didn't find it?  Try again.  And again...and so, another NANFAn is born. 

Even with the tropicals I had as a kid, the "collecting bug" never bit. Now that adult-me has a job that demands significant overtime every week and irregular days off, going out of my way for some fish hunts to stock this tank isn't really that appealing either. For the time being I'd rather stick with stock I can purchase. Maybe for The Next Tank, once I've got some more experience under my belt. This time around I'd rather focus on simplicity and ease.

[gerald]

Even with the tropicals I had as a kid, the "collecting bug" never bit. Now that adult-me has a job that demands significant overtime every week and irregular days off, going out of my way for some fish hunts to stock this tank isn't really that appealing either. For the time being I'd rather stick with stock I can purchase. Maybe for The Next Tank, once I've got some more experience under my belt. This time around I'd rather focus on simplicity and ease.

 

Uh-oh, now you've done it.  The rest of the upstate SC gang will no doubt take that as a personal challenge to get you into a creek.  NANFA evangelists are persuavive and persistent.   Be nice to him, guys - at least wait for warmish weather.

 

Re "overwhelming the plants" you can also use fast-growing disposable floaters (frogbit, hornwort, salvinia, ricciocarpus, even duckweed) to pull out huge amounts of waste nitrogen quickly. 

[WheelsOC]

Why do I feel like I've just walked into a dog park with a chuck of pork belly wrapped around my neck?

 

Duckweed (or another small-ish floater) is part of my plan, along with watersprite and elodea if I can swing it in the same tank. Obviously the duckweed would give some unwanted shade, but if I'm scooping out a bunch of it every few days it should take out the nitrogenous pollutants and keep shade manageable (plus, plant shading should be good at controlling unwanted types of algae too). Between the floating plants and the fast-growing "oxygenators," they should be able to burn up most of the wastes and compete against algae to keep the water clean. As a bonus, it should add some nitrogen to our compost pile when fresh grass clippings aren't in season.

 

I'm already writing up a list of potential plants and wanted to post a thread on a planted tank forum for a sanity check before getting all spendy.

Right now the list consists of giant bacopa, Canadian elodea, water sprite, dwarf sag, and some fissidens moss to attack to things (like flowerpot caves). First I want to make sure they'll all at least work in a tall, temperate, low-tech tank like the one in question. Details can be hashed out in more appropriate places, I'm sure.

 

Even if the weedy plants can handle more waste, I'd still like to start off slower with the stocking to make sure things don't go belly-up from my impatience.