9 replies to this topic

[Calkins Nature Area]

Hello, I came across this site in doing some research for a project the nature center I work at.  We have expanded our museum and have a plan for a 400 gal tank to be installed as one of our displays.  I have been through the trials and tribulations in keeping tropical and saltwater reef tanks over the past 8 years.  Between my fishkeeping experience and background in ecology I feel like I have a pretty good knowledge base to start from, but I have never attempted a tank setup this large or had much experience with natives other than bullheads and a small channel cat.  We have a collectors permit and plan on stocking it with native species from the upper portions of the Iowa River and its tributaries which still have many stretches of unsilted rock, gravel, and sand bottom.  

 

A few specific questions:

What is the best way to cycle a tank this large and how long will it take?

We will have an inline pump to run the filtration system and I am wondering what an appropriate flow rate would be?

Is a chiller necessary/recommended?

Most of the fishes will be smaller species like daces, darters, shiners, horny head chubs, and possibly American brook lamprey.  Are there species that I need to avoid putting together in a tank that size and is there anything larger that could be kept with that won't take them out?

I am also interested in eventually adding native muscles and or clams.  I know it is possible in saltwater tanks but can be tricky.  Is this possible for freshwater?

Are crayfish possible to keep alongside small fishes or will they take them out?

 

I know that's a lot of questions.  Any advice on any aspect of this project would be helpful.

 

Thanks 

[Michael Wolfe]

Here's a similar project that we did here in GA.  You might also get some help from your local NANFA members... they are here on the forum and might see this and chime in.

 

http://forum.nanfa.o...ill#entry119413

 

• a base of natural substrate is the easiest and what I would recommend
• I cannot comment on flowrate
• no a chiller is not necessary
• If you like shiners and dace (and I really do) avoid creek chubs and sunfish and bass and bullheads... all of these are efficient at eliminating other tank mates.
• many native muscles are protected, be careful with that
• crayfish walk around and night and eat sleeping fishes

[smilingfrog]

For larger fish, hogsuckers and stonerollers get pretty sizable.  I haven't kept either personally, but have never heard of anyone having a problem with them eating their tank mates.

Not sure that I would bother with crayfish.  As Michael said they will take out the occasional sleeping fish.  If you have lots of fish and only a few crayfish in a tank that size though, you'll probably never notice the fish they get.  That being said, you'll probably also never see the crayfish as they will burrow under rocks etc... and remain hidden until the lights get turned off.

[littlen]

 

A few specific questions:

What is the best way to cycle a tank this large and how long will it take?

Collect sand/gravel/stones from a local stream.  They will already be biologically active and help you establish a mature tank almost instantly.  If you do not have mature/biologically active filter media right away, just keep your stocking density on the lower side to start with.  No need to cram every fish in their right away.  If you're worried about pathogens, etc. and plan on QX the fish and starting with sterile tank decor, it'll take a lot longer to cycle the tank.  So let us know which way you're heading in terms of tank decor.

 

We will have an inline pump to run the filtration system and I am wondering what an appropriate flow rate would be?

If you're going with stream fish, you really can't overpower them.  They'll find spots that suit them best and play in the current from time to time so let it rip.  But what size/type/HP/volt pump are you working with?  Again, I doubt it's anything that you'd have to reduce the flow on.  Also consider that any filtration it runs through, (UV sterilizer, chiller, etc) will reduce the flow as it is pumped to the tank.

 

Is a chiller necessary/recommended?

Necessary?  No.  But if you're heading in the direction of a community tank with the species listed in the next question then you may want to cool them down in the winter and see if you can get them really fired up during the spring.  Temp and lighting are the keys to getting them to spawn.   What is the ambient tank in the room where they will be set up?  Remember that pumps and filters also add heat to the system.  If you have a decent budget and have the option of buying a chiller, why not?  I have one on a 150g that I keep at 67F all year.

 

Most of the fishes will be smaller species like daces, darters, shiners, horny head chubs, and possibly American brook lamprey.  Are there species that I need to avoid putting together in a tank that size and is there anything larger that could be kept with that won't take them out?

Michael is spot on.  But there are big, gentle giants like smilingfrog mentioned.  Suckers will have plenty of space in a 400g.  The trick to their success is ensuring they get enough food.  Shiners and dace do a great job at eating everything and leaving little for large suckers to feed on.  But once you have your final list, we can discuss all of that.

 

I am also interested in eventually adding native muscles and or clams.  I know it is possible in saltwater tanks but can be tricky.  Is this possible for freshwater?

Again, not knowing the laws/species of Ohio, I would thoroughly look into it first.  I haven't tried them before so I couldn't offer any useful info.

 

Are crayfish possible to keep alongside small fishes or will they take them out?

I will mirror Michael and S-frog again, they will get small, sleeping fish.  But if you're easily able to replace them as needed then it shouldn't be a problem.  But keep the numbers low and expect to rarely see them.  On the other hand, if you go with Sunfish, bass, and other predatory fish....keep their numbers high as they'll be on the lunch menu.

[Doug_Dame]

I like Seachem's "Stability" product for helping set up a working cycle quickly.

 

Read Todd Crail's article from American Currents, "System Design for the Ultimate Native Fish Aquarium." He did a masterful job of making many niches in his 100g tank by thoughtful combinations of current and substrates. If you want to display and support as many kinds of different fish species as possible, this will give you ideas. With a 400g tank you should have room to implement much diversity.

 

One thing I like to do in a wide tank is create something of a central ridge. This helps create a generally circular flow pattern, and more variety in water depth. The shallower water makes a good place to put light-loving plants, and a good place for smaller fish or species that don't like much current to hang out. 

 

Consider whether any native muscles and clams would be "on display" enough to make them worth the effort. There's some risk they'll just die, unseen, and possibly stress the system.

[sbtgrfan]

There is a product called Fritz Zyme out there that does an amazing job at helping with the cycle if you don't want to wait weeks for a cycle. It allows you to put the fish right into the tank after setup. Just monitor it closely and test daily.

I would highly recommend a chiller. Not so much for the fish specifically, but if you run water through enough decent sized pumps, you're going to heat that water pretty good.

[Calkins Nature Area]

Thank you to everyone who has replied with your advice.

 

It looks like a chiller would be nice if there is room in the budget but not required.

 

I'm now looking over the drawings our museum designer and wondering what you think about this setup?  The two glaring issues that standout are the small pump size/flow rate and the use of 2" line seems a bit large.  What about the general setup of a particulate/carbon canister and a separate bio canister.  I would think it would have to be one enormous bio canister to do much good in a tank that size.

 

Should I be better off looking more at a wet/dry sump type filtration?

 

Also, would a UV sterilizer be a wise idea?  It is in an interior room with no windows.

 

I'm not sure if this will be a planted tank or not.  Will the standard low-mid range LED strip lights be enough for plant growth?  Has anyone tried these new LED tubes that can be retrofit into a standard T8 fixture?

 

Please check out the attachments to get a better idea of our plan.

 

Thanks again.

 

[littlen]

 

Couple of things.  According to your drawing, I think you'd need to relocate or add additional bypass vales to where I've redrawn them in red.  Otherwise where they currently are, water would flow out of your unions once you disconnected them to clean out your filters.  You can simply add 1 valve on the bypass line to keep it closed [and water flowing through the filters] during normal operation.

I think your pump is undersized, but that is all relative to what exactly you want to do.  If you have a chiller (and depending on what size/HP it is, you'll need a minimal flow rate through it to keep it from freezing up).  Otherwise you may not need one.  Two inch PVC on your system as you have it sketched out would be too large, especially for that sized pump.  Having a pump large enough that 2" lines would be required would be overkill.  I still think you need a little larger pump.  Take a look here: http://search.pentai...grid&af=&srt=12 Page 2 has some smaller magnetic drive pumps that should have sizing charts.  I use them for systems of 100 gallons and above.  You won't have much head pressure so you won't need the largest model.  

Again, with the setup in your graphic, you don't need 2" piping.  I would go with 1".  If you decide to go the route of a W/D sump, then you can have 2" piping on the return side of your system (water flowing from the tank to the sump) and 1" pipe on the supply side. 

 

You'd be surprised how much biofiltration a little bio-filter can perform if set up properly.  (Right media, right flow/oxygenation).  Without seeing exactly what you have, it's hard to say, but you may be ok with what you have.  The advantage of a W/D sump is that it allows for a lot of bio-media in it for just that type of filtration.

 

A UV wouldn't be a terrible idea, but not absolutely necessary.  If you have the money, do it.  Catching wild fish and adding them right to exhibit, you might experience some disease outbreaks.  Lernia, ich, and some other external bugs could be greatly reduced by having UV.  It would also help with algae control but that another discussion down the road.  

Depending on the plants, you'll get away with some nitrogenous waste product removal/'organic' filtration if you will.  What specific plants and how much light they require will be better answered by others.  But if you a stream setup, a lot of plants wouldn't be that necessary but would look sharp if you do a pond habitat.  You're call.

[Calkins Nature Area]

LSS.PNG

 

 According to your drawing, I think you'd need to relocate or add additional bypass vales to where I've redrawn them in red.  Otherwise where they currently are, water would flow out of your unions once you disconnected them to clean out your filters.  You can simply add 1 valve on the bypass line to keep it closed [and water flowing through the filters] during normal operation.

 

 

Good catch on the bypass valves.  I think there was supposed to be valves between the tank and the pump and on the return line but that would still make more of a mess than necessary when cleaning the filter.

 

The museum designer who put this together has only designed a couple of tanks (although one was a custom 16' cold water trout run display for another nature center), but I know from my experience with smaller tank setups that a poor design can lead to a lot of headaches that can usually be avoided.  

 

I also want the system to be as easy to maintain as possible to simplify things for current and future staff.

 

Does anyone have any experience with auto topoff units.  I think I can probably find room for one in the budget but my worry is what happens if they fail or the power goes out?  Do I end up with a flooded tank?  

[sbtgrfan]

A lot of the auto top off systems used in the reef hobby have safety measures so they will only run for a certain amount of time not allowing a flood. They also have some higher end ones that have a visual and mechanical way to measure water level, helping keep things accurate. I don't have experience with any larger, higher end ones, only nano versions. If the power goes out, pump won't come on, so no need to worry about a flood there.