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New to natives in North Alabama


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#1 gbeauvin

gbeauvin
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  • Huntsville, AL

Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:10 PM

"New to Native Fishes"... that's me!  I have some history with aquaria (Tanganyikan cichlids in tanks ranging from 29 to 100 gallons), but have been away from the hobby many years.  I'd like to set up a native tank (40 gallon br), and the species that caught my eye are the blue-fin killifish (L. goodei) and swamp darter (E. fusiforme).

 

So -- that's great.  I know how to set up a tank and cycle it, I'll be trying my hand at heavily planted tanks for the first time but at least I have some idea of how to get started on that front.  My real question -- how does one obtain native fish?  The TFH issue that sparked my interest suggests collecting them from the wild, "being sure to get all necessary permits and license" etc etc.  Is there an underground network where one can find captive bred native fish in the hobby?  Are permits to collect and transport wild fish between states difficult to come by?  I'm just getting started on this odyssey, I haven't even purchased the tank yet but I figure I might as well start getting all my ducks in a row.

 

thanks,

 GB (still an armchair aquarist, but looking forward to a new chapter in his aquatic adventures)


Edited by gbeauvin, 27 April 2016 - 02:10 PM.


#2 Dustin

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  • Forum Staff

Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:58 PM

Both species of interest are commercially available and abundant in the wild.  Check out Jonahs Aquarium or the the natives section of Aquabid.


Dustin Smith
At the convergence of the Broad, Saluda and Congaree
Lexington, SC


#3 loopsnj64

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  • NANFA Guest

Posted 27 April 2016 - 03:19 PM

Look at your states fishing laws
many MANY fish are classified as "bait" (Or simply have no laws regarding them whatsoever) and can be legally caught and kept without incident

Here are list of fish types that may be less easy to legally obtain by collecting
-Basses
-Trout
-Pike/muskies
-Shad/alewife
-any other commercially or sportfishing important species

methods of collecting that are legal vary by state to state too, for example in NJ it is legal to use a minnow seine under 10 feet wide... as long as its not in a trout stream (and I have yet to find any streams that are not "Trout streams")

The fish you are looking for are small, lake/swamp dwelling fishes, so I would suggest finding a lake/swamp they are known to inhabit (and is legal to collect from) and bringing the following equipment
-Waders (Unless your comfortable swimming in swampwater)
-A dipnet or handnet (Fine mesh, preferably larger than a standard aquarium net)
-Collecting bucket (and optionally, an aerator for it)
-Guide to local fishes, be careful as I find it easy to misidentify fishes out in the field, I have mistaken swamp darters for tessellated darters and vice versa

 

Wade by the shoreline, the key feature you are looking for (For the killifish) is not fish darting by the shoreline, but instead thick weed growth less than 4 feet from the shore, sweep the net slowly from underneath the weeds, scraping the sand or mud on the bottom, sift through the weeds in the net for any entangled fish and put them in your bucket (You can identify and release unwanted ones later)
For the darters you are definitely going to need a minnow seine and a second person (ALSO wearing waders), and use the seine in more open water that lacks branches or weeds
 


"All good things must come to an end, but bad things think thats rather dull, so they stick around long after their natural end has come"

-From an art book I read


#4 fundulus

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  • Global Moderator

Posted 27 April 2016 - 05:19 PM

Alabama really only requires a fishing license to collect non-game freshwater fish, and there are no regulations against keeping most of them in home aquaria. The two desired species would be common along the Gulf coast of Alabama, and you could search through Museum Collection databases for collection sites.
Bruce Stallsmith, Huntsville, Alabama, US of A

#5 gbeauvin

gbeauvin
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  • Huntsville, AL

Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:02 PM

Thanks.  I may choose something closer... we're travelling down to Pensacola in a few weeks but I won't be ready for fish by then.  This might make a good excuse for a trip this fall though!  There's also something to be said for choosing fish from the flint or paint rock, which are right next door.  These two were just the ones in the magazine that made me go "ooh, cool!".  There seems to be a whole new world for me to explore when it comes to native fish.

 

-GB



#6 Doug_Dame

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  • NANFA Member

Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:05 PM

Huntsville, Alabama. You are in the 2nd best area in the world in terms of diversity of f/w fish species, 2nd only to the Amazon basin. Excellent planning there on your part.   :)

 

Some good advice has already been posted. 

 

There are two excellent fishes of Alabama books. Get one or both. Use them for window-shopping. In another thread, Gerald Potten just posted info that he has copies for sale of "American Aquarium Fishes" by Goldstein, Harper and Edwards. While that book has been criticized by some, its focus on native fish with aquarium potential, and collection of breeding info, is unique. (Edit ==>). Plus the Peterson's Field Guide to Freshwater Fishes is a std reference you'll need if you roam out of state.

 

Waders are pretty much optional in Alabama most of the year, unless you are doing long stints in the water. I was in mid- and north Alabama the weekend before last. With waders near Birmingham, I was comfortable. In shorts, two hours was enough to get chilled, but the added comfort and freedom of movement was worth it, for me. When I got to north Alabama, I left the waders in the vehicle, and was good for 60-90 minutes. And it's still relatively early in the spring. 

 

In MOST states, minnow and other small fish are regulated as bait, and there's relatively few restrictions, as long as you are taking them for personal use, and are not selling any commercially. You do need a standard recreational fishing license. Check the Alabama regulations for details. in MOST states, you can keep gamefish, but you usually have to catch them with hook & line, not any kind of net. It's not legal to keep ANY small fishes in Tennessee any more. As a non-commercial fisher person, in general there are very few regulations or permits required regarding transporting native fish across state lines. However, some states are cautious about introducing potentially invasive species, and have regulations. 

 

Some kinds of fish, like fast minnows, are very hard to catch single-handedly with a dipnet. (Or a 4ft seine.) So you have to gang up to with other crazy people and use a seine. Which is also an excellent way to meet up with people who are more knowledgeable about the local fishies in an area, and learn how to identify the various species. 

 

Although the odds are not high in most parts of the country, there is some risk that you could go out and inadvertently catch some rare or endangered (state or federally listed) species by random luck. North Alabama has some such species. For that reason, the NANFA recommendation/policy is that you should not take home any fish if you don't know what it is. Due to the difficulty of identifying some species, and especially many juvenile fish, that advice is not easy for professionals to follow all the time, let alone amateurs. My personal practice is to do enough study beforehand that I have a decent idea what endangered species are in a given drainage, and what they generally look like. If I catch anything that looks suspicously like one of the prohibited species, I will either just release it immediately, or take a quick in-hand photo and then let it go. So for example, if I catch an interesting madtom, the ID of which I am not certain, but there's no prescribed madtoms in the area, I'd feel it was okay to take that one home for further study. (However, be aware that on the NANFA forums, this "rule" is strictly interpreted. If you request help with an ID of a fish@home, you will be given a very hard time because you took it without knowing exactly what it was, even if it's clearly of a family/genus that has no at-risk species in the area where you caught it. If you want ID help on the NANFA boards, take a few in-focus stream-side photos, and release the fish. If it turns out to be something safe, you can come back again at another time.)

 

Another NANFA policy/recommendation you should observe most strictly is "if a fish has been in an aquarium, it must NEVER go back to the wild." Even to the exact spot where it was caught. That is to prevent the introduction of diseases etc from gear or captive populations, which may built up some immunity, into the wild. 

 

There are a few aquaculturists who specialize in native fish. I won't name them here for fear of overlooking someone who is a friend of NANFA. Some of the fish for sale are raised, and some are wild-caught. Given the time & effort involved, prices seem reasonable to me. Native fish are often listed on Aquabid as well. Although I would much rather "catch my own" if possible, it's fun and gives one an extra appreciation for the fish if you know where it comes from, something about its life history, etc. 

 

Finally, in regards to the specific native fish that have caught your eye:

- swamp darter - not found in the immediate Huntsville area, although you would not have to drive far to find some. Compare to rainbow darter, which is local. (e.g. Paint Rock River.) The later is flat-out gorgeous, is a great personality fish, adapts well to aquarium life. Most quickly learn to eat flake food, although an all-flake diet probably would not be great. A crown prince of fishes. 

- bluefin killie - very very nice fish. Ubiquitous in Florida, but just barely makes it into Alabama, south of Dothan. 

 

Welcome !


Doug Dame

Floridian now back in Florida
 


#7 Doug_Dame

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:50 PM

Thanks.  I may choose something closer... we're travelling down to Pensacola in a few weeks <snip snip>

 

-GB

 

If you go to/through South Alabama and the Florida panhandle, study up on the various Pteronotropis species in those areas. Some fabulous fish. And most are dead easy to catch if you are in the right place, many of them like to school in clear water where the current is "just-so", and will return to the same spot over and over. Welaka (bluenose shiner) is listed in Florida and uncommon everywhere. But signipinnis (flagfin shiner), merlini (orangetail sh.), hypselopterus (sailfin) and grandipinnis (Apalachee sh) are very common in the right habitats (typically clear water over sand, in small to medium creeks), attractive, and excellent aquarium fish.


Doug Dame

Floridian now back in Florida
 


#8 Michael Wolfe

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  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:17 PM

You are getting some good advice, and I will only add one more thing... go hyper-local... what lives in the first stream you cross on your drive to work/school?  What fish live in the stream that is closest to your house... that you could walk to?  You will be surprised!  Especially where you live.  Check out this thread of what we found last weekend on a college campus in North Georgia on the little stream that runs between the parking lot and the baseball fields.

 

http://forum.nanfa.o...16/#entry136655

 

Your local stream could be just as nice... become the expert in your piece of nature!


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#9 mattknepley

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  • NANFA Member
  • Smack-dab between the Savannah and the Saluda.

Posted 28 April 2016 - 04:57 AM

Welcome! As you see, lots of good folks on here willing to share knowledge. Glad to add you to the crew!
Matt Knepley
"No thanks, a third of a gopher would merely arouse my appetite..."

#10 Mysteryman

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  • NANFA Guest

Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:32 PM

Be aware, though, that one of the fish you'll find most locally is the Flame Chub, a fish which is in big trouble and shouldn't be collected. It has a distinct black & white line which reminds you of a tropical Black Neon when it doesn't have it's "flame" colors going. They live in ditches, even concrete ones, all over town.

 

I have some Flagfin Shiners handy to get you started if you'd like some.

 

Bluefin Killies are readily available on Aquabid.

 

I have a seine and some waders and live in Madison. If you'd like a partner, I've been looking for one.



#11 gbeauvin

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  • NANFA Guest
  • Huntsville, AL

Posted 03 May 2016 - 04:55 PM

Is a 40gallon (36x18x17) tank big enough to support both multiple species?  I'm thinking I'd like a darter and something more minnow-like (shiner?).  Also, is it possible to set up an aquarium that will appeal to both types of fish?  For filtration I'm planning to do a sump system with a spraybar on the return, but I haven't built anything yet so possibilities are pretty wide open on what the plumbing will look like.  I think my pump is a QuietOne 1200, but I'm not averse to buying something bigger if the fishies need more current than it can provide (300ish gph, but probably half that once you take into account head pressure).

 

-GB



#12 fundulus

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  • Global Moderator

Posted 04 May 2016 - 09:48 AM

With most darters and a lot of shiners you want some well-defined current, but many shiners like scarlets and stripes like to hang right on the edge of the current. The one local shiner that really needs to be in the middle of serious flow is the telescope shiner, and they're a lot more fragile to collect and acclimate. I now have several tanks of telescopes for a research project, and we've learned to handle them very gently when seining. They also do much better if you collect them in January rather than April.....


Bruce Stallsmith, Huntsville, Alabama, US of A

#13 gbeauvin

gbeauvin
  • NANFA Guest
  • Huntsville, AL

Posted 04 May 2016 - 12:17 PM

Thanks, Bruce.  I think I'll avoid fragile species.  It'll take awhile to get the tank set up since I have to build a stand, work out the plumbing, etc etc (and I generally work slow), so I doubt I'd be ready for fish before mid-summer.  Is it generally better to collect in colder weather, or is that just a telescope shiner thing?  I wouldn't mind just growing some shrimp and learning to keep plants alive until the weather cools down next fall if that's better for the fish.  It'd give me a chance to get some creek-stomping under my belt and get a better feel for what their wild environments are like.

 

-GB



#14 fundulus

fundulus
  • Global Moderator

Posted 04 May 2016 - 07:56 PM

In general, and certainly in our north 'bama experience, fish collected in the warmest 4 or 5 months of year are harder to keep alive, even tough species like sunfish. I would recommend that locally from now until October extreme care be shown collecting live fish for captivity, like using a handnet to remove them from the seine directly to a transport bucket with aerator that's kept in the shade. But, you might be lucky...
Bruce Stallsmith, Huntsville, Alabama, US of A

#15 gzeiger

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  • NANFA Guest

Posted 06 May 2016 - 06:00 PM

Transport bucket kept in the flowing water also works well in most cases.

 

Since you're content to take your time here, one point to research is what foods a fish needs. Searching these boards will generally locate that information. For example, I love the bluefin killifish mentioned above, but they absolutely will not eat flake food of any kind. Shiners on the other hand are fairly adaptable in that regard.



#16 don212

don212
  • NANFA Member

Posted 08 May 2016 - 08:16 AM

swamp darters are an exception, unlike other darters they prefer slow or stagnant bottom, i catch them with my dipnet all the time, sweeping the bottom, they aren't colorful but are fun to watch, but i believe they are egg and fry eaters, in fl. we can collect any non game, non endangered species with a fl fishing license



#17 gbeauvin

gbeauvin
  • NANFA Guest
  • Huntsville, AL

Posted 21 May 2016 - 09:18 PM

You are getting some good advice, and I will only add one more thing... go hyper-local... what lives in the first stream you cross on your drive to work/school?  What fish live in the stream that is closest to your house... that you could walk to? 

 

I didn't start quite hyper-local, but I did start at a creek that I cross on my way to work that has good public access (as opposed to closer streams that I'd have to either get landowner permission or go rogue trespass to get to).  Had a great time!  Thanks for this advice, I'm already planning even closer trips (after talking to assorted landowners)

 

-Rick





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