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Max Temp for Darters


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#1 thedood

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 06:28 PM

I am working on getting together the materials for a darter tank (mud darters but considering others) and am wondering what the upper level stress free temp is for them. My house gets rather warm in the summer and I am wondering what cooling system, if any, I will need. Thanks!



#2 NotCousteau

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:18 PM

I think my tank has gotten into the mid-70s with no visible stress to my rainbow and fantail darters. (Or the shiners and dace, for that matter.)

I do have central air that I use when it gets too hot.

Good luck!

#3 thedood

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:22 PM

I dont have central air. I am thinking I am going to need to build a chiller.



#4 Evan P

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 10:20 PM

Mud Darters can handle warmer temps a bit better than others. I have found them in ~80 degree water, although I'm sure that that is not ideal long term.


3,000-4,000 Gallon Pond Full of all sorts of spawning fishes! http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php/topic/13811-3560-gallon-native-fish-pond/page-3 
 

#5 Betta132

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 01:47 AM

Depends on the species. Swamp darters from warmer states do fine anywhere in the 70s if there's plenty of oxygen in the water. 



#6 littlen

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 05:36 AM

What other species are you considering specifically?  


Nick L.

#7 thedood

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 02:48 PM

The plans for the tank as of now are Mud Darters, Redfin Shiners and Black Striped Top Minnows. Since central air is not an option and a window unit is minimal use (the missus and I own an old row building in a small town) Ive been thinking of how I can build a chiller for this tank that takes up minimal space. Kicking it on and off is easy, I have home built climate controllers with both a heat and cool side made from an inkbird 1000 controller. Kicking a pump on and off at x degrees is simple. I was thinking of pumping the water through a decent cooler filled with cold tap water. Simply use vinyl tubing coiled up inside. Drain and refill daily or as needed. I was also considering one of those travel coolers converted into the same thing only have it kick on with the pump. I worry about the water going stagnant if not purged from time to time.


Edited by thedood, 06 May 2016 - 03:14 PM.


#8 gzeiger

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 05:47 PM

Swamp darters are found in water that reaches well into the 80s in some areas.



#9 thedood

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 06:33 PM

Swamp darters might be an option. I was hoping to stick with species I can find locally and I am not sure they have a presence in the area. Off to do more research. Thanks for the replies!



#10 littlen

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 07:18 AM

If you plan an possibly keeping a species that won't thrive in warmer waters, a chiller as you describe may not work out so well in the long run for the following reason. Dramatic temperature changes (let's say 80 --> 70) frequently, and not lasting more than a few hours is very stressful for a lot of the smaller stream fish inhabitants who are used to more constant and slowly changing temps.

My perception of how you describe your DIY chiller sounds like if the temps get too warm you'll do a flow-through of the tank water through a cooler with cold water to chill the tank. This will work in terms of physically decreasing the water. But my concerns are the fish experiencing constantly changing temps. Other N. American fish handle changes a lot better. Pond dwelling species for example will experience significant thermoclines depending on depth as well as in the shallows day v. night in the summer.

I think what you are trying to accomplish is possible but might need to make sure the species you pick are suitable for consistent warm temps. I've never worked with mud darters so I can be of no help. On the contrary, I have kept Redline darters in ~75F year round which are typically a cool/cold water species. Really good aeration was key in that situation.

Good luck.
Nick L.

#11 thedood

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 08:44 AM

Nick thanks for the reply. I spent a good part of the night reading and doing research and I have drawn the conclusion that my idea isnt really feasible for a number of reasons. I have a colony of cherry shrimp I use as feeders and they are going to have to be cooled as well. I am moving them to another tank that will have a diy stand, filter, and canopy. I think I have drawn the conclusion that mounting fans on the canopy  is going to be the way to go. If I get the evaporation rates I think I can achieve I will be able to cool the tank significantly and do so at a rate that will not stress the fish. If the fans dont work as well as I hope then I will have to explore options of other fish as I will not knowingly stress my animals that way. If my research and the conclusion I have drawn is correct it may require my investing in a small ro unit as tops offs could reach a half gallon or more a day when it is really hot.



#12 littlen

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 12:15 PM

dood,  (can I call ya 'dood'?!)

 

I still don't think you'd get the (key word) constant cool temp using even a RO top-off.   But part of what we are all here to do is advance our captive husbandry techniques such that we can determine what works and what doesn't.  I am definitely not telling you not to try it.  It will be interesting to see what some of the thermal limits are for some of the fish you plan on keeping.  The other thing you could do is keep the tank lower to the ground where it would be cooler as long as you don't have a lot of air movement in the room.  Also keeping it in the basement vs. top floor.  Keep lighting to a minimum, unless using LEDs so there is very little heat output.  Last thing to keep in mind are pumps and filters--they can be the biggest contributors to heat in a system.  Last-last thing to consider is volume of water.  The bigger the better.  Less of a temp change over time the larger the total volume.


Nick L.

#13 gzeiger

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 12:57 PM

I think what he's suggesting is evaporative cooling, not just topping off with cooler water. A fan that runs all the time would keep the temperature constant enough. Not sure how much cooling you actually get though. An aquarium has a huge surface area of glass for ambient heat input. Insulating sides and back would help, but is a bit impractical.

 

For many fish the stress from warm water has as much or more to do with dissolved oxygen than the actual temperature, and good aeration can make a big difference. Conveniently you also get some evaporation that way.

 

It's likely that locally caught fish can handle the local temperatures, even if the house is a bit warmer than the outside. Especially pond species as noted above.



#14 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 01:10 PM

For many fish the stress from warm water has as much or more to do with dissolved oxygen than the actual temperature, and good aeration can make a big difference. Conveniently you also get some evaporation that way.

 

It's likely that locally caught fish can handle the local temperatures, even if the house is a bit warmer than the outside. Especially pond species as noted above.

 

I had something to say... but it was said... hyper local.


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#15 thedood

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 04:25 PM

Nick you can call me dood, I hope were all friends here! What I am suggesting is indeed evaporative cooling. The problem I have is untill I get our down stairs apartment done I am stuck upstairs with only limited ability for air conditioning. This house gets HOT during the summer months even with the air on.

Here is a little back ground on the setup I am planning. I was originally going to use a 20h for my darter setup as I have it on hand, but a friend is selling me a 55g for a good price so I am picking it up next week. It comes with a 48" t8 shop light which will be plenty for growing some local plants low tech. I am going to build a canopy 48 1/4" long,  12 3/4 wide, and 10" tall. I am going to mount the light in the center at the top. Behind the light, in the top, I am going to cut three rectangular holes that I will cover with furnace register vents. Under the light I will cut holes and mount 6 80mm pc fans, three on each end, facing inward. I will power the fans with an ac to dc 12 volt adapter that will be tied into a controller so they dont run constantly, only when tank temps hit 80 degrees as an example. If my calculations are correct assuming each fan moves 40cfm of air I should be turning over the canopy space of air 80 times per minute. I read of reef systems dropping 3 to 5 degrees f with similar systems and that is with metal halides, I am hoping for a little better.

 

I am going off topic now since I am on a roll. This tank will have a lot of diy including the stand, canopy, and filter. Here is my filter design which I have similar on my 75 as a water polisher only and it is very efficient. This is a sketch done in paint.net and is not up to scale.

 

20h_filter_design_zpskqw9w6wc.jpg

Here are the hangers again not to scale.

20h_filter_hanger_zps6fd8riec.jpg

The version of this filter in my 75 is very efficient and very easy to clean. If you wonder why I would do this there are a few reason. One I dont like to throw money at problems i can over come myself and I like the challenge.

What I am wanting to house in this tank is mud darters, redfin shiners, and black striped top minnows. Substrate will be pre-charged safe-t-sorb. I have a build doc in another thread I need to update but it lists the plants all of which are native to Illinois and should do well in a low tech environment. I am also going to include some driftwood as soon as I find some suitable. I also have some nice flat sand stone I am going to include as well.



#16 littlen

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 05:24 PM

I am a huge fan of DIY aquarium keeping.  Looks pretty neat.  


Nick L.

#17 thedood

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Posted 07 May 2016 - 06:07 PM

I am a huge fan of DIY aquarium keeping.  Looks pretty neat.  

 

Me to Nick. I built a stand for my 20H and Rosie O'Donnel could jump up and down on it and it wont break and it wont tip. Does it look perfect? No, I cut the lumber with a miter saw and a circular saw but honestly I dont care, the imperfections make it mine and give it character. I was running an emperor 400 and a Magnum 350, the magnum had ceramic and a purigen pouch in it, on my 75 and the water was ok. I removed the Emperor and replaced it with my home built polisher and my water is crystal clear and odor free. It really isnt all that visible, except from the side, as the tank is heavily planted. I plan on moving the polisher further in toward the middle and am moving it to a horizontal mount and then it will be well hidden. Here is a pic of the polisher.

 

IMG_20160426_190451002_zps3deirc58.jpg






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