Hybopsis amnis Pallid shiner?

Fish was caught (and released) from the Kankakee river Will county Illinois.

I'm getting slightly conflicting key features from the various books and thought the forum expertise might help me with this fish I've never attempted to identify.

Thanks in advance guys

Wow, that would be a find, eh? Did you only get one?

The one character that has really been obvious on specimens I've caught in Texas and Arkansas is the connection of the upper and lower jaws; there's a good illustration of this in Robison and Buchanan, 1988, Fishes of Arkansas, p168. Your fish seems to fit all of the other characters of amnis, but I can't get enough contrast on the jaws in those photos to see if it has this...

You should email this to Larry Page at FLMNH, I'm sure he'd be interested in seeing this...

Cheers,
Dave

Fish was caught (and released) from the Kankakee river Will county Illinois.

I'm getting slightly conflicting key features from the various books and thought the forum expertise might help me with this fish I've never attempted to identify.

Thanks in advance guys

Wow, that would be a find, eh? Did you only get one?

The one character that has really been obvious on specimens I've caught in Texas and Arkansas is the connection of the upper and lower jaws; there's a good illustration of this in Robison and Buchanan, 1988, Fishes of Arkansas, p168. Your fish seems to fit all of the other characters of amnis, but I can't get enough contrast on the jaws in those photos to see if it has this...

You should email this to Larry Page at FLMNH, I'm sure he'd be interested in seeing this...

Cheers,
Dave

Thank you very much for you time Dave.

We found a total of three in two different locations one mile apart. These were incidental finds since we couldn't resist making a few passes in the slack water next to the riffles we sought for darters in spring color.

I'll not only play around (increase contrast) with the photos I have of this fish but I'll be sure and send the best photos along to Larry Page.

This and the other fishes of the same kind were sampled along with primarily bluntnose Pimephales notatus and young spotfins Cyprinella spiloptera.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm not sure if this will help but I took the three open mouth photos and increased contrast considerably. This seems to help show the mouth parts with a bit more detail.

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That looks pretty connected to me! Nice stuff Uland!!!

The local authorities on the matter have spoken....This is Notropis heterolepis. Thanks for all the help.

The local authorities on the matter have spoken....This is Notropis heterolepis. Thanks for all the help.

I dunno. The nose seems too blunt.

I dunno. The nose seems too blunt.

Yeah, but it doesn't have the extension of the maxilla past the connection of the upper and lower jaws. I think the appearance of a blunt snout is partially a function of having the mouth open. I'll try to get some pics of a preserved amnis for comparison later today - meant to do it yesterday but things came up.

cheers,
Dave

Photos of SU 16082, Hybopsis amnis, Poteau R, Le Flore Co., OK. The posterior extension of the maxillary (the bone in the upper jaw) is really obvious in the close-up of the jaws - so the upper jaw goes way behind where it meets with the lower jaw. Really kind of a weird structure.

Cheers,
Dave

Wow Dave!
Your photos are excellent and I might add extremely valuable. Thank you for posting.

If I may ask (since I have no previous experience with either fish) does heterolepis have a similar mouth structure? I must say our fishes appear quite similar in mouth structure as well as other features less the elliptical eye that your fish seems to posses.

If I may ask (since I have no previous experience with either fish) does heterolepis have a similar mouth structure? I must say our fishes appear quite similar in mouth structure as well as other features less the elliptical eye that your fish seems to posses.

I pulled a couple lots of Notropis heterolepis from Michigan (CAS 78083) and Nebraska (SU 5541) for comparison... and yeah, they're more similar than I remembered, but they still differ in how far back the maxilla goes. I don't know whether anyone has ever suggested a relationship between heterolepis and amnis. Hmmm...

cheers,
Dave

The jaw and mouth structures in the two species look like similar adaptations for protrusible mouths with focused sucking force. I don't know anything specifically about either species, but it is a striking morphology.