21 replies to this topic

[thedood]

I am finally getting around to setting up my darter tank, I should be able to start stocking in a few weeks. Here are the specs this tank will have:

• 55G with dirt mixed with cat litter, capped with black diamond blasting sand
• Full canopy with 4 12v pc fans and vent hole
• 1 48" shop light with 2 32 watt 6500k t8 tubes mounted in the canopy
• 2 Marineland C220 will provide filtration. Both filters have sponge pre-filter on the intake. One intake and outlet in each back corner. The filters are configured with coarse sponge, quilt batting, pumice bio-media, more batting and a purigen pack.
• Heater turned to minimum temp and controlled with a controller that controls both the heater and fans. Tank will get rather cool in the winter and my target temp will be 65 degrees.
• One piece of driftwood

Fauna:

• Mud darters (Recommended number?)
• Blackstripe topminnows (Recommended number?)
• Redfin shiners (Recommended number?)
• A small catostomid. Please recommend a species that will fit into this setup and how many I should get. The purpose is cleanup crew.
• Most likely some snails, ramshorns and bladder snails

Flora:

• Pond weed.
• A crypt or Val, something large would be nice. Any recommendations for native species?
• Should I create an algae mat for this setup and if so whats the best way to set it up and place it?

Thanks for viewing. I am interested in buying the fish if anyone has any for sale or knows where I can get them. I have found the topminnows but the shiners and darters have proven elusive. I would love to catch my own but I have never done it before and am not really sure where to go and what not and my time is somewhat limited.

Edited by thedood, 06 August 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Matt DeLaVega]

One of the jumprocks. A suckermouth minnow may be suckery enough for you as well.

[gerald]

Catostomids can be tricky to keep in a mixed community; they nibble food in small amounts all day long, which is difficult to provide when keeping them with shiners and other faster-feeding fish.  White sucker and chubsuckers are probably the easiest suckers in aquaria, but both get pretty big. Also, most suckers are not really very useful for algae control, if that's what you mean by "clean-up crew", although Torrent suckers might work if you can keep then cool in summer (not above 75F).  Matt's suggestion of Phenacobius, or maybe stonerollers might be more successful.

[thedood]

I appreciate the replies. The main thing I am looking for is something on the bottom to eat left over food and other consumable detritus from the bottom.

[Matt DeLaVega]

I had not thought about ease of keeping. In that case you can't go wrong with stonerollers, also provide some algae control.  Suckermouth minnow looks suckerish, but actively feed and compete with shiners.

 

https://www.flickr.c...N05/14603329074

[Matt DeLaVega]

One of the smaller madtom species might work.

[Josh Blaylock]

Small Crayfish?

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[thedood]

Always helpful folks on this forum, one of the reasons I purchased a membership. Matt, I was considering tadpole madtoms but was unsure how much they actually roam around the tank picking food. What I was reading made them sound as if they act like an ambush predator. Josh, I had not considered crayfish, any species recommendations?

 

Side notes: Ive been doing more research on darters and am thinking of going with Iowa darters instead of mud. And I am also considering adding some blue spotted sunfish to the mix. So I think my numbers might look like this:

 

4 or 5 shiners: I'm looking for redfin but cant find any for sale. Will Scarlett shiners be about the same?

4 or 5 Blackstripe top minnows. Cool looking fish.

2 or 3 Darters, like I mentioned mud or Iowa

4 or 5 blue spotted sunfish

1 bottom feeder, small species preferred. Tadpole mudtom maybe? Some crayfish species will work, I have read they are escape artists so if I go that direction I need to plan my canopy accordingly.

[littlen]

Crayfish &/or tadpole madtoms will result in a decreased darter and shiner population. Both are good predators. Some Crays will eat plants too.

Also, some suckers do quite a bit of sifting through substrate which could stir up your soil if the kitty litter isn't deep as well. Stonerollers don't root around too much at all.

[thedood]

Littlen thanks. I thought that I had read what you have replied with. I have read the article about keeping darters multiple times and the article specifically suggested catostomids but didnt recommend a species. Doing research its seems many of them grow quite large. I have gotten to the point in the hobby I prefer small pygmy and dwarf type fish and would prefer to stay with something peaceful and small. Oh and something that wont eat my plants or my other fish.

[Matt DeLaVega]

 Elegant madtom would be a better choice. Tadpoles get big enough to eat darters. Dwarf crayfish are fairly easy to purchase. Not a very predatory species.

[Evan P]

Hey there Dood, looks like you have a pretty good idea of what you are looking for. Considering the temperatures you are dealing with, if you'd like to try breeding, you could let the tank drop to below 60 degrees for a couple weeks in Winter and you would probably be able to manage a spawn, out of the Blackstripes and Bluespotteds for sure if nothing else.

 

A true bottom feeder is a bit unnerving in a dirted (especially kitty-littered) tank. Tadpole Madtoms would be great for a couple months, but the shape of an Iowa Darter is just too swallowable for them to ignore. Instead, I would look at another madtom (Elegant, Ozark, a couple more stay small enough), the mentioned Stonerollers (2 or 3 would do a good job and would school with you shiners), a Phenacobious species (I have seen them sift detritus in my tanks when not panicked into tightly schooling with other minnows), or maybe even a small Spotted Sucker if you would be willing to target feed. Cambarellus shufeldtii may work as a crayfish. They are small and are known for not eating fish or plants, at least not in any noticeable manner, but I don't think they would last long with you Bluespotted Sunfish. 

I may be channeling Michael Wolfe here, but have you thought about Nocomis? I think one Nocomis chub would be a great pack leader for your minnow school.

Good luck with this tank! Let us know when you have it set up. If you need help getting fish, let me know, we may not be too far away from one another.

EDIT: Looks like Matt and I had the same idea on the Madtoms (Elegant are a really cool species, one I would like to try to get my hands on to breed) and Dwarf Crayfish. 

[Matt DeLaVega]

Scarlet shiners are almost identical to redfins, but are more attractive in my opinion.

[Michael Wolfe]

I may be channeling Michael Wolfe here, but have you thought about Nocomis? I think one Nocomis chub would be a great pack leader for your minnow school. 

Agree that Nocomis will also rummage about the bottom looking for stuff to eat... And always look good doing it.

Also like the Phenacibius idea. They are very nice fish and would likely clean up the bottom.

I also like my local Notropis longirosterus as a small minnow that is constantly grazing the bottom of my deep sand tank. Maybe you can find a local similar fish.

I don't know anything about your substrate, but my jumprock is maintaining his weight and growing living in a deep sand tank under 20 plus shiners in a 55 in the basement.

Oh, and from the original thread... Loose the heater. If the water is still liquid, the natives will be happy.

[thedood]

@Yeahson421 I have most of what I want figured out, I have asked questions on this forum and have done a lot of research and read what books and articles I have found available online. As far as the dirted substrate I have no ties to anything if it can be better suited for my plans and that includes ditching sand and going with river gravel which I have a ton of on hand or something like safe-t-sorb. I have two dirted tanks that have done real well, no algae issues, and I have to trim regularly so from a plant perspective I was sticking with what has worked well for me thus far. My main concern is as balanced a system as I can provide that will equate to good health of the fish. I just lost several hundred dollars worth of Lake Tanganyika cichlids that were in this tank and I really dont want to go through that again. Anyway I love these fish and the goal is as balanced a system as I can provide. Some of what I have been reading has me concerned that the numbers I have for blackstripes and shiners will be sufficient or of I should maybe double the quantity for a healthy school. I would definitely Take up an offer to go hunting for natives. I was going to go with Ben Cantrell awhile back and I was unable to go.

 

@Matt DeLaVega I was kind of drawing that same conclusion. They are a nice looking fish.

 

@Michael Wolfe Any suggestions on a Nocomis species? A cursory search demonstrates some nice looking fish. Anyone know of any smallish species native to Illinois? I also am liking the looks of the Phenacibius species. What about jumprocks that are native to Illinois? My goal has been to keep this as an all Illinois species tank but I think the bluespotted sunfish idea removes the Illinois only concept and I am not opposed to any fish if it fits the criteria and is native.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Southern Illinois has Ellassoma zonatum in it's swampy back water areas.

[Michael Wolfe]

 

@Michael Wolfe Any suggestions on a Nocomis species? A cursory search demonstrates some nice looking fish. Anyone know of any smallish species native to Illinois? I also am liking the looks of the Phenacibius species. What about jumprocks that are native to Illinois? My goal has been to keep this as an all Illinois species tank but I think the bluespotted sunfish idea removes the Illinois only concept and I am not opposed to any fish if it fits the criteria and is native.

 

I really love local tanks.. ditch the Enneacanthus and add the local Nocomis... start with two or three small ones (3 inches) and they will grow into nice 9 inch fish in a 55 gallon tank.  Not sure if you really have any jumprocks up that way and I think you would have to go with a sand substrate to maintain them (or any other sucker in my opinion).  If you like the Phenacobius, I highly recommend them.

[thedood]

@Matt DeLaVega My original idea was a Cache River Swamp biotope, which I would still like to do. Doing my research I found a couple of issues. One is Ellassoma zonatum is an endangered species in Illinois and I am not sure how that would affect the legality of me owning it (thoughts?), and two if memory serves me correctly they are very hard to get to eat frozen or dried food and with my schedule I dont have the time to cultivate live food for them. Otherwise gorgeous fish that someday I will have even if it means moving out of Illinois to have them lol.

 

Looking at Nocomis species itt seems that the Nocomis biguttatus is native to Illinois. This from wiki makes me nervous: 

 

Older hornyhead chubs are known to consume: clams, snails, crayfish, worms, aquatic insect larvae, and fish

I dont know that a potential 9 inch fish could eat a darter? They are pretty interesting looking fish!

[Michael Wolfe]

My experience with Nocomis is that they do not usually eat fish. I'm sure all fish will each a fish if hungry enough and given the opportunity. But I have had a 8 inch bluehead live with a school of 3-4 inch yellowfin shiners for years without losses.

[thedood]

Michael thanks! So there we have it, the Nocomis biguttatus will be my cleanup dood. So a few more question. I would love to add a few sunfish to this setup but I have a couple of concerns. One is am I adding enough minnows and shiners for the school or should I bump those numbers up a little which of course will bump up the bio-load. Also I am looking at sunfish and thought the blue-spotted sunfish would be cool. But they are of course not native to Illinois. The orange-spotted sunfish is however native to Illinois but seems to get larger than the blue-spotted. Anyone see an issue with me adding one orange-spotted sunfish to the mix or do you think I am tapped out for space with this setup or they are overly aggressive for this setup?