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Redear Sunfish Hybrid?


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#1 EBParks

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:16 PM

A UC Davis colleague sampled this fish recently and was looking for options on a possible hybrid. The drainage has bluegill, redear sunfish, green sunfish, and warmouth. I guess pumpkinseed are technically a possibility, but unlikely. I'd much appreciate opinions.

 

The two main guesses are RES x GSF or RES x WAR

 

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Joshua Porter

#2 Josh Blaylock

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 06:42 PM

I'm terrible at these, but I see RES x GSF.

Really not seeing the warmouth in it, but it's been some time since I've seen a warmouth in person.

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#3 smbass

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 11:21 PM

Top fish looks like a normal redearto me not a hybrid at all, second fish looks like it could just be a pumpkinseed also may not be a hybrid. If anything it may be a redear x pumpkinseed because of the rather long pectoral fins and blue vermiculations on the opercle thicker than usual. I see no Green, Warmouth, or Bluegill in either fish.


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage


#4 centrarchid

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 05:54 AM

Top fish looks like a normal redearto me not a hybrid at all, second fish looks like it could just be a pumpkinseed also may not be a hybrid. If anything it may be a redear x pumpkinseed because of the rather long pectoral fins and blue vermiculations on the opercle thicker than usual. I see no Green, Warmouth, or Bluegill in either fish.

X2

 

I have made lots of hybrids involving Redear.  Hybrid with pumpkinseed very plausible for lower fish in first image.  Not spots in addition to yellow belly.  Might even be straight pumpkinseed.


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#5 EBParks

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 10:06 PM

Yeah sorry. The fish on top is a normal redear for comparison. As far as I know, pumpkinseed have not been recorded around there for some time. I'll have to double check.
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Joshua Porter

#6 EBParks

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 03:12 PM

Brian what do you make of the spotting on the dorsal fin? This was the assessment of one of the head guys over at UC Davis:

 

"Eh, I'd say warmouth-redear cross if anything.  No white edging on the medial fins, so it has no greenie in it.  Don't think it's a pumpkinseed - too streamlined.  The spotting on the second dorsal fin warmouth often have.  Looks like it has a bit bigger mouth than a typical lepomid, which, again, says warmouth more than anything to me."


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Joshua Porter

#7 EBParks

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 03:21 PM

After looking at some pumpkinseed photos, the spotting on the dorsal seems to be pretty prevalent. Further support of the pumpkinseed guess. I've asked them to tell me just how often they actually sample pumpkinseed on their surveys as well.


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Joshua Porter

#8 centrarchid

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 10:34 AM

I see no Warmouth.  Hybrids with warmouth appear to be dead sterile so animals not likely to be examples of introgression where warmouth would be diluted.   Strong Pumpkinseed evidence to my eyes if the spotting on flanks.  F1 hybrids of Pumpkinseed x Redear show it but usually weaker than putative hybrid above.  Pumpkinseed x Redear hybrids very fertile so backcrossing very possible there.  The body shape is not reliable when fish in poor condition. 


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#9 smbass

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 10:21 PM

Yeah that spotting on the dorsal is normal pumpkinseed coloration and I too see no warmouth in that fish at all. It could be as centrarchid is suggesting a hybrid or backcross with redear but it looks more like a pumpkinseed than anything else. The only thing that looks a little odd is the thicker vermiculations on the opercle, seem a little thick for a p-seed but other than that it looks pretty typical to my eye. If it is a backcross I would guess it is 3/4 or better p-seed. Also warmouth would have some outline to the dorsal and tail just like a green, they just are usually white or red rather than yellow or bright orange like a green. Warmouth hybrids are pretty rare in nature in my experience, I have seen a few but they have always been with either Green or Bluegill. 


Brian J. Zimmerman

Gambier, Ohio - Kokosing River Drainage





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