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Sunfish and Ich treatment


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#1 Sunfishing

Sunfishing
  • NANFA Guest
  • New Jersey

Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:30 AM

Hi,
 
I have a tank of sunfish that has recently became infested with ich.  The tank consists of:  bluegills (3-7"), pumpkinseeds (3-5"), and green sunfish (1-2.5").   I noticed the tiny white nodules/spots about a week after adding the new green sunfish to the tank.  I now realize I should have quarantined them.  My bluegills and pumpkinseeds were quite healthy for the past 9 months since I caught them.  (All fish were wild caught legally within the laws of my state).
 
I saw no spots, then went on vacation for 36 hours and returned to find every fish was infected with white nodules at some level.  Other than the white spots the fish are showing signs of flashing, twitching, and gill flaring regularly.
 
Day one:
The day after I noticed the spots I tried Seachem ParaGuard with a full dose.
 
Day two:
The next day the pumpkinseeds started showing red veins at the base of all their fins, and have taken to swimming directly in the wake of the filter return.   A behavior I haven't seen before.
 
The bluegills occasionally show the same behavior, but no red marks.
 
I lost 1 baby green overnight.  Another that was looking very poor in the morning was acting quite well by afternoon.  So the surviving greens seem to tolerate well.
 
I thought the ParaGuard was stressing the pumpkineeds too much so I did a 50% water change, and used a half dose of ParaGuard.
 
By evening the symptoms and behavior continued.  So I did another 25% water change.
 
Day three:
This morning the red marks on the pumpkinseeds have diminished a bit, and they continue to ride the wake of the filter.
Now the largest green has also started swimming in the wake of the filter return.
 
I plan on discontinuing the ParaGuard and trying Seachem Cupramine.  I know these products are NOT compatible.  Anyone know how long I should wait for the ParaGuard to completely degrade before I can dose Cupramine?  From what I've read it sounds like 24 hours for the ParaGuard to degrade.  I plan on waiting 48 hours, and another water change, unless I get advise otherwise.
 
Water parameters:
Temperature: 69-75F, (Usually hits 74F at mid day thanks to my plant lighting.  Drops to 69F when I do water changes.)
pH: 7.6
KH: 7 dKH
GH: 8 kGH
Amonia: 0 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Nitrates: 10-15 ppm at the moment, but tank is over crowded so it easily reaches 40-80 ppm if I don't change the water frequently enough.
Phospates: 0.5 ppm
Iron: 0 ppm
 
Since I do frequent water changes I have also picked up Seachem MultiTest Copper so I can monitor the copper before/after water changes and maintain the recommended 0.25 ppm copper for fresh water.
 
Does anyone have any additional advise?
 
Anyone have any experience/stories about treating their sunfish for ich or other parasites?
 
I'm worried about my pumpkinseeds as they are my favorites, and showing the most stress.  They actually wiggle against the glass to greet us when it's feeding time :-)
 
 
 

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#2 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 30 May 2017 - 11:44 AM

Regardless of which anti-protozoan med you use, it takes several days for an ich cyst to develop, fall off the fish, divide, and then release the free-swimming trophonts, which is the only stage than can be effectively killed.  No med can cure ich in less than 5 days.  Keep good aeration going, since the gills are infected too and can't operate at normal efficiency.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#3 littlen

littlen
  • NANFA Member
  • Washington, D.C.

Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:05 PM

Increase the water temperature which will speed up the lifecycle and reduce treatment time.  Sunfish are hardy and should tolerate treatment well.  Your live plants may not be happy with your copper based meds but you can pull them temporarily and add them back afterwards.  Salt is another treatment option, but will take a little longer.


Nick L.

#4 centrarchid

centrarchid
  • NANFA Member

Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:18 PM

When temperature can be managed it is raised to between 82 an 84 F.  Salinity is raised to 2 PPT.  Aggressively aerate water or even add pure O2 if available.  Then use antibiotic to suppress secondary infections.  Count on significant weight loss.  Outbreak should run its course in less than 10 days.


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#5 Sunfishing

Sunfishing
  • NANFA Guest
  • New Jersey

Posted 31 May 2017 - 09:53 PM

Thanks for the advise guys!

 

I've added an air stone, and started treating with Cupramine (after waiting 48 hours for the ParaGuard to degrade).  Fish seem to handle the Cupramine fine.

 

Fish are less active than usual, but seem OK.  However, they're appetite has gone from voracious to barely nibbling.  White spotting is extensive now.  I can't wait to see improvement.



#6 Sunfishing

Sunfishing
  • NANFA Guest
  • New Jersey

Posted 04 June 2017 - 11:32 AM

It's been several days using Cupramine and aquarium salt.  Now most fish are looking better!  Eating again, and significant reduction of ich cysts.  I did loose a couple of baby greens, and one bluegill though.

 

Unfortunately the two largest (1 bluegill, 1 pumpkinseed) have secondary infections, and still not eating.  They are looking bloated, have white puffy stuff hanging off of them, and the pumpkinseed has a growing white patch of flesh on his head bump.

 

The only info I could find describing the white flesh is:

https://www.thespruc...um-fish-1378480

 

Anyone know any antibiotic that is compatible with Cupramine?  Seachem says not to use Cupramine with any other medication.  I spoke to my local pet store and they were also too worried about interactions with the copper to recommend anything other than wait and see.

 

 

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#7 gerald

gerald
  • Global Moderator
  • Wake Forest, North Carolina

Posted 04 June 2017 - 11:39 AM

Check the UFL aquaculture website:  http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/publications.htm  and also  nationalfishpharm.com


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#8 littlen

littlen
  • NANFA Member
  • Washington, D.C.

Posted 04 June 2017 - 12:22 PM

I agree, that P-seed does not look good.  Ich is very treatable and not often deadly if caught early.  I know those first couple of cysts are hard to spot before all of a sudden you have an outbreak.

I'd get the ich under control first.  As long as they are still in the system and on the fish, you'll continue to have issues.  You may find that once the ich clears up, the fish are able to fight whatever secondary infection they have.  Hopefully the rest of your fish pull through.  


Nick L.

#9 centrarchid

centrarchid
  • NANFA Member

Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:21 AM

Secondary infection underway.  White indicate necrosis that could be mediated by bacteria and / or fungi.  Hence my default approach for using antibiotic on the front side of this.  Most losses from ich, unless ich really heavy, is from secondary infection.


Find ways for people not already interested in natives to value them.




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