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NY minnows


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#1 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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  • Long Island

Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:06 PM

Had my Lake Champlain trip this weekend.  Amazing lake, but I wasn't able to catch basically anything I hoped for, big game or micro.  My pops caught a monster Bowfin at least.  The only Minnows/Shiners I caught were in the La Chute River, which connects Lake George to Champlain, not sure if I even caught anything I haven't caught already, so hard to tell with these things.  Surprisingly, I didnt see a single Minnow/Shiner species at the water's edge anywhere I looked in the lake.  Only Banded Killis.  

 

 I think 1) and 2) are the same species probably but could be missing something so figured I'd post both.  

 

1)

 

Attached File  20170610_133844_Moment (2).jpg   2.4MB   0 downloads

 

 

2)

 

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3)

 
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Attached File  20170610_135045_Moment (2).jpg   2.28MB   0 downloads
 
 


#2 Matt DeLaVega

Matt DeLaVega
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Posted 11 June 2017 - 07:53 PM

Look at fishmap.org . It is underutilized and it looks like you can narrow it down fairly easily. I saw my guesses on the list in that watershed. Give it a shot, bet you get really close if not correct ID's from narrowing it down. Not a hugely diverse region.


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#3 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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Posted 11 June 2017 - 08:32 PM

Matt- I hear you about fishmap but you know I need Nanfa ID Approval before official declaration of identification.  I think Champlain watershed is greatly diverse, I went in thinking tons of different minnows were in play there.  For fish 1 and 2, it seems a ton of these minnows have that band thru the middle and sometimes it's not there or very faint.  But maybe you're right about the lack of diversity because these fish were caught in La Chute which could be more likely to have Lake George fish, which would narrow the possibilities.  

 

The more I look at fish 3, I'm thinking Eastern Silvery Minnow.  For fish 1 and 2 seems like many possibilities, leaning Bridle Shiner right now.  What are your guesses?



#4 Michael Wolfe

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  • North Georgia, Oconee River Drainage

Posted 12 June 2017 - 08:10 AM

Top two look to be juv Luxilus (like common or striped shiner or even white).

The other one looks like a Cyprinella (not sure of the local varieties).
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#5 gerald

gerald
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Posted 12 June 2017 - 08:33 AM

#1-2 -- The narrow dark stripe along lateral line ending in a SPOT on caudal peduncle and dark edges on the dorsal body scales makes me think it's something other than a Luxilus.  #3-4 -- Agree with MW it's probably Cyprinella, based on diamond-shaped scales, small eye, dorsal fin shape, and I think i see a trace of dark smudge in the rear part of dorsal.  Peterson guide (i have the old version) shows two possible Cyprinellas along the NY/VT border.  I haven't checked FishMap.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#6 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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  • Long Island

Posted 12 June 2017 - 09:06 AM

ahhh Cyprinellas was not what I was hoping, but I agree now it's definitely Spotfin Shiner.  I had caught 2 of them before catching this fish, so they were clearly in the area.  The Spotfins I had caught had very pronounced pigment at back of the dorsal fin.  This fish appeared to have no pigment on dorsal so I was convinced it was different.  However, after rewatching the video (instead of snapping pics of micro fish nowadays I record videos of them, and then take picture from the video), I can see very very faint pigment at back of the dorsal.  Sneaky spotfins....

 

So I see Michael and Gerald have conflicting opinions about fish #1-2 

 

Gerald- You were the one who identified the little fish that I thought was Spottail Shiner as a Luxilus in this thread below from last year.  Any idea what it could be other than a Luxilus?  Comparing this fish to the fish from that thread it's so hard to tell if it's different.  

 

http://forum.nanfa.o...xtra-credit-id/



#7 gerald

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

I think you've got a spottail shiner this time.  Look at them head-on:  Luxilus are distinctly taller than wide (laterally compressed) whereas spottail and most other slim-bodied Notropis shiners are nearly round in cross-section, only slighter taller than wide.  Also, common shiners are more evenly silvery from top to bottom (often with purplish sheen like the one you posted last year).  This guy is distinctly less silvery on the top half than the bottom half; more straw-colored on top, with those dark-edged scales.  Just keep staring at lots of fish and eventually the differences sink in.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#8 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 05:39 PM

I was thinking sand or mimic and spotfin. The spottail seems like a good thought though instead of sand or mimic.


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#9 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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Posted 12 June 2017 - 06:44 PM

lol Matt, fish like Mimic and Sand Shiner were species I was hoping to encounter.  Spottail is a fish I will probably catch next time I fish at my Delaware River spot, but I cannot catch fish like Mimic Shiner anywhere in my fishing radius.  Alas, better a Spottail than just another Luxilus.

 

I was studying the fish again and can't argue with Gerald's reasoning.  Only concern was that I read that the Spottail's dorsal fin originates either directly above or before the origin of pelvic fin, this fish it almost looks like dorsal originates slightly behind it, but it's close enough.  

 

Anyway, Gerald appears to have reached the necessary 85% confidence interval that this is a Spottail, so thus it shall be declared as such, unless anyone objects...

 

Thanks for the help guys 



#10 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 07:06 PM

There are by most accounts two very different populations of spottail in the country. I am not very familiar with either, but most think they are two different fish.


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#11 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 07:56 PM

There are by most accounts two very different populations of spottail in the country. I am not very familiar with either, but most think they are two different fish.


That's the excuse I'm going to use... that does not look like my N. hudsonius at all. I'm sure Gerald is right.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#12 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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Posted 12 June 2017 - 08:23 PM

interesting that the other hudsonius isn't just a different species, do you guys have a pic of your local hudsonius?



#13 Michael Wolfe

Michael Wolfe
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Posted 12 June 2017 - 08:46 PM

Still at convention. But i think there are some old threads on this topic and you can search the gallery archive for pictures. My N. hudsonius is long and slender.
Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#14 gerald

gerald
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Posted 12 June 2017 - 09:29 PM

I have no experience with Sand and Mimic shiners - FJ's fish might be one of those. 

Your pics are sharp enough you can probably get a scale count, if that helps distinguish them.


Gerald Pottern
-----------------------
Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#15 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 12 June 2017 - 09:59 PM

I think you are right Gerald. They don't look quite right for sand or mimic. But from what I see locally, that is what popped into mind.


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#16 FishyJackson

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:24 AM

ok confidence levels sound a bit lower right now so I'm temporarily re-opening this investigation lol.  

 

Throwing 2 other Notropis names out there from this watershed that may possibly be being overlooked?  Blackchin Shiner and Blacknose Shiner.  Both are on fishmap as in this watershed.  Tonight when I get home I'm going to examine the video again for different angles , hopefully of it's nose.  



#17 FishyJackson

FishyJackson
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Posted 13 June 2017 - 06:29 PM

scratch that...stickin with hudsonius 



#18 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 06:30 PM

LOL! Right on.


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