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Water movement in a 10g for Okefenokee


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#1 Cricket

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:00 PM

I have issues with air stones and wondering if this small filter will provide enough gas exchange for E. Okefenokee in a 10g tank?
https://youtu.be/NY_UR_VTsg8

#2 Cricket

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:02 PM

[attachment=18887:0915172203b-1.jpg]

#3 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 09:14 PM

How many Elassoma are putting in there?  I think it will be fine.  You've got a lot of plants already (and I am sure they will grow some more). I've had 2 males and 3-4 females in a 10g no filtration (just plants) and they thrives and reproduced.  But I prefer a little sponge filter about the size of your fist.  Thats usually enough to keep the water clear.


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#4 lilyea

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 09:42 PM

How many Elassoma are putting in there?  I think it will be fine.  You've got a lot of plants already (and I am sure they will grow some more). I've had 2 males and 3-4 females in a 10g no filtration (just plants) and they thrives and reproduced.  But I prefer a little sponge filter about the size of your fist.  Thats usually enough to keep the water clear.

 

I have a similar Elassoma setup to what Michael described (with the suggested sponge filter) and have had the small colony for a couple of years.



#5 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:03 PM

http://www.drsfoster...EBoCZkcQAvD_BwE

 

A sponge filter like this with a good air stone will do all you you need. In most tanks up to 55 gallons a sponge or two is my favorite filtration. Maybe not best in all situations, but generally they do a great job, require little maintenance, and are virtually bombproof. A battery operated pump can keep one alive during a power outage. No moving parts to wear out except air stones and air pumps which are both inexpensive. Also you can keep an extra one alive in your first ten gallon, and move it over to a new tank if you choose to start one and you are instantly cycled. A simple and great tool in my opinion. Oh, and super easy to clean. When I do a water change, I siphon a couple gallons of tankwater out into a bucket, squeeze the sponge out several times in the bucket and done.

 

Your tank looks very nice. Welcome to our forum.


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#6 Cricket

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:29 PM

How many Elassoma are putting in there?  I think it will be fine.  You've got a lot of plants already (and I am sure they will grow some more). I've had 2 males and 3-4 females in a 10g no filtration (just plants) and they thrives and reproduced.  But I prefer a little sponge filter about the size of your fist.  Thats usually enough to keep the water clear.

I was planning 6 to 8. And was hoping the plants would help. This is the filter I use for my bettas but they are in 5 gallons.

 
I have a similar Elassoma setup to what Michael described (with the suggested sponge filter) and have had the small colony for a couple of years.

:)

http://www.drsfoster...EBoCZkcQAvD_BwE
 
A sponge filter like this with a good air stone will do all you you need. In most tanks up to 55 gallons a sponge or two is my favorite filtration. Maybe not best in all situations, but generally they do a great job, require little maintenance, and are virtually bombproof. A battery operated pump can keep one alive during a power outage. No moving parts to wear out except air stones and air pumps which are both inexpensive. Also you can keep an extra one alive in your first ten gallon, and move it over to a new tank if you choose to start one and you are instantly cycled. A simple and great tool in my opinion. Oh, and super easy to clean. When I do a water change, I siphon a couple gallons of tankwater out into a bucket, squeeze the sponge out several times in the bucket and done.
 
Your tank looks very nice. Welcome to our forum.

thank you and thanks for the welcome. I just can't stand the air pumps vibrations. I've tried putting them on insulation and blankets on a shelf and even on bubble wrap. I think I'm just sensitive to vibrations. Is there any other way a sponge filter functions than air pumps? I am not averse to other ideas...

#7 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:27 PM

thank you and thanks for the welcome. I just can't stand the air pumps vibrations. I've tried putting them on insulation and blankets on a shelf and even on bubble wrap. I think I'm just sensitive to vibrations. Is there any other way a sponge filter functions than air pumps? I am not averse to other ideas...

No reason you couldn't attach a very small powerhead to one. You could also run the airline quite a distance from the pump. Put the pump in another room, in a garage, or even outside(use a 5 gallon bucket or something to protect it from the elements). All problems can be overcome with some ingenuity and creativity.


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#8 Cricket

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:06 AM

No reason you couldn't attach a very small powerhead to one. You could also run the airline quite a distance from the pump. Put the pump in another room, in a garage, or even outside(use a 5 gallon bucket or something to protect it from the elements). All problems can be overcome with some ingenuity and creativity.

do you think it's that important to use a sponge? Honest question. Would a sponge over the intake be as good? Or what makes them so much better?

#9 Cricket

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:22 AM

No reason you couldn't attach a very small powerhead to one. You could also run the airline quite a distance from the pump. Put the pump in another room, in a garage, or even outside(use a 5 gallon bucket or something to protect it from the elements). All problems can be overcome with some ingenuity and creativity.

[attachment=18888:0809172125d.jpg]like this? Btw. Thanks for the help.

Edited by Cricket, 17 September 2017 - 01:24 AM.


#10 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:52 AM

Similar, bigger sponge maybe.


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#11 sbtgrfan

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 06:43 AM

Putting a powerhead over a sponge filter (like the intake "plugged" into the output tube of the sponge filter at the top - see image below) is a good way to make an already efficient sponge filter much more efficient because you're going to be pulling more through it. I guess if the power goes out, you can still switch to a small air pump to keep it going just to be safe as a backup. The only downside to sponge filters is they take up space in a tank and could potentially be eyesores depending on the tank and the look you're going for compared to a hang on the back style filter that you could easily hide with a background on the tank. Having said all that, to answer your initial question - that filter you currently have should be perfectly fine for your elassoma.

 

sunsunspongefilterwithtube.jpg


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South Carolina Aquarium
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#12 Cricket

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:20 AM

Similar, bigger sponge maybe.

Putting a powerhead over a sponge filter (like the intake "plugged" into the output tube of the sponge filter at the top - see image below) is a good way to make an already efficient sponge filter much more efficient because you're going to be pulling more through it. I guess if the power goes out, you can still switch to a small air pump to keep it going just to be safe as a backup. The only downside to sponge filters is they take up space in a tank and could potentially be eyesores depending on the tank and the look you're going for compared to a hang on the back style filter that you could easily hide with a background on the tank. Having said all that, to answer your initial question - that filter you currently have should be perfectly fine for your elassoma.
 
sunsunspongefilterwithtube.jpg


Thank you both. I think I may try the power head. Is putting the sponge directly over the intake a no no?

#13 gerald

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:57 AM

If an air pump is unacceptable, then get the smallest, lowest-flow powerhead you can find.  If Elassoma fry get sucked up against the sponge, you want them to be able to swim off easily.  They're not as current-savvy as minnows and darters.  ...and welcome to NANFA!

 

PS -- I use Matt's strategy: air pump in closet, with air hose running under the door.  One pump runs all my tanks.


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Hangin' on the Neuse
"Taxonomy is the diaper used to organize the mess of evolution into discrete packages" - M.Sandel


#14 Michael Wolfe

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 12:40 PM

do you think it's that important to use a sponge? Honest question. Would a sponge over the intake be as good? Or what makes them so much better?

 

No it is not that important for the water quality... your small filter will be fine... but what Gerald said about the fish (and particularly the fry) is true... you need to protect the intake of your filter with a big sponge (to spread out the effect of the suction over a large surface area) so that nobody gets sucked uf in the thing, os sucked up on the filter grate or whatever.


Either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. - Benjamin Franklin

#15 Cricket

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 11:54 PM

 
No it is not that important for the water quality... your small filter will be fine... but what Gerald said about the fish (and particularly the fry) is true... you need to protect the intake of your filter with a big sponge (to spread out the effect of the suction over a large surface area) so that nobody gets sucked uf in the thing, os sucked up on the filter grate or whatever.

If an air pump is unacceptable, then get the smallest, lowest-flow powerhead you can find.  If Elassoma fry get sucked up against the sponge, you want them to be able to swim off easily.  They're not as current-savvy as minnows and darters.  ...and welcome to NANFA!
 
PS -- I use Matt's strategy: air pump in closet, with air hose running under the door.  One pump runs all my tanks.

Ok I'll see what I can do. Maybe I can use a closet. If not I'll find a power head. Thanks for the help and the welcome!

#16 Cricket

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 02:52 PM

 
No it is not that important for the water quality... your small filter will be fine... but what Gerald said about the fish (and particularly the fry) is true... you need to protect the intake of your filter with a big sponge (to spread out the effect of the suction over a large surface area) so that nobody gets sucked uf in the thing, os sucked up on the filter grate or whatever.

If an air pump is unacceptable, then get the smallest, lowest-flow powerhead you can find.  If Elassoma fry get sucked up against the sponge, you want them to be able to swim off easily.  They're not as current-savvy as minnows and darters.  ...and welcome to NANFA!
 
PS -- I use Matt's strategy: air pump in closet, with air hose running under the door.  One pump runs all my tanks.

I don't know what happened I had written a post and it disappeared :(
[attachment=18890:0921171241-1.jpg]

Edited by Cricket, 21 September 2017 - 02:58 PM.


#17 Cricket

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 03:03 PM

I went to the lfs to get a sponge filter and after talking a while he recommended this filter. Above. It came with a sponge For the intake but I swapped it out for one that was cycled. Its not big as y'all recommended but this picture shows the highest setting for flow rate which is 60 liters an hour. I really doubt it has too strong a suction but if y'all think I should get a larger sponge I still can. Or maybe I could get one and put it in another tank to cycle for a month then switch them out. I'm assuming it would take them a while to adjust before spawning but y'all know if that's true better than I do.

Also they are shipped! Should arrive tomorrow at my lfs So they don't wait out in the heat. He said he would text me when they arrive and open the box to make sure they are ok. Think that's a good idea? I'd feel bossy and ingracious to say "no don't." But I don't think it will be in a dark and quiet room like Gerald's write up suggests.

Edited by Cricket, 21 September 2017 - 03:07 PM.


#18 Matt DeLaVega

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 07:15 PM

Gerald's suggestions are ideal. We don't always get ideal, so you do the best you can. Follow as much of his advice as you can and you should be just fine. It is a far better scenario than a box sitting on your doorstep for hours in the sun. And if the fish are not in good condition upon arrival, I am sure he will take photos. Sounds good to me.


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#19 gerald

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 08:36 PM

The bit about "dark and quiet" was mainly for darters, which sometimes freak out, dash around madly, and die if suddenly exposed to bright light after being in a shipping bag for a couple days.  That's not usually a problem with sunfish (they do get startled and dash around of course, but it's not lethal!)


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#20 Cricket

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 12:05 AM

Ok good. I wasn't looking forward to bossing him about. :) I am very excited and nervous and skeered :') I want everything to be perfect.

What are your thoughts on this?
Copied and pasted from here https://www.fishlore...ed-fish.114599/
This is what I do with Discus. And your fish are being 2 day shipped? I'd definitely do this. Many call it drop and plop. Float to get temp, then get the fish in the new water as soon as you open the bag. They aren't going to instantly die once the open bag is exposed to new air...but the theory is definitely true. CO2 and Ammonia build up in the bag at a low pH (pH will drop some in the bag), and once the CO2 off gasses and the pH rises (you putting in higher pH water by dripping it) the ammonia will become more and more toxic and cause burns.

Dripping after 2 days in a bag would be a very bad idea IMO. Even after fasting, 2 days the water will equate to sewer water. Adding your water to bag water will cause ammonia burns and raise toxicity because your pH is higher then the bag pH. The only times you should be drip acclimating is if you get fish from the LFS (very short bag trip) or if your tank pH is lower then the bag pH. Definitely drop and plop. Float for temperature (short time also because this still will cause ammonia to become toxic with a temp increase) and then plop them in the tank. I've done this with DOZENS of discus, both wild and domestic, as well as geos, festivums, and wild angels. I will never drip acclimate unless my tank pH is lower then the bag.

It honestly scares me how many people are recommending drip acclimation after such a long trip. Ammonia is much less toxic at a low pH, so adding your water and raising the pH should be common sense that the ammonia will become even more toxic as the pH rises and the temp rises.



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