17 replies to this topic

[itsme]

Is this the current, more or less correct, naming and distributions for the Pteronotropis, aside from welaka and hubbsi?  Are there any other new or old species that are not on this map?  Thanks!

[itsme]

OK!   Is this the current, more or less correct, naming and distributions for the Pteronotropis, aside from welaka and hubbsi?  Are there any other new or old species that are not on this map?  Yes, I am aware that signipinnis may be split at some point... or has it already?  Thanks!

Attached Images

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[gerald]

The southwest (Gulf) form of colei is the "Alafia shiner" - i think that one is pending description (Brady Porter?).  Pt. signipinnis (not mapped) extends from eastern Louisiana east to Appalachicola River.

[itsme]

Thanks, Gerald!

[gerald]

Hopefully the new Florida book has 'em all (except stonei and euryzonus):

Fishes in the Fresh Waters of Florida: An Identification Guide and Atlas, is coming out soon!!!

Pre-order is now available through University Press of Florida.  Great discount available before March 31st!
Apply discount code:  AU318   http://upf.com/book....d=9781683400332

[lilyea]

 

Hopefully the new Florida book has 'em all (except stonei and euryzonus):

Fishes in the Fresh Waters of Florida: An Identification Guide and Atlas, is coming out soon!!!

Pre-order is now available through University Press of Florida.  Great discount available before March 31st!
Apply discount code:  AU318   http://upf.com/book....d=9781683400332

 

 

Thanks Gerald!  This is exactly the nudge I needed to order this book!

[Doug_Dame]

Me too. Thanks for the hint/reminder, Gerald.

[blakemarkwell]

Just to quantify, the AU318 code will take the price of the book from $60 to $45 - very reasonable for a Fishes of or, I guess in this case, a Fishes in book.

[itsme]

 

Hopefully the new Florida book has 'em all (except stonei and euryzonus):

Fishes in the Fresh Waters of Florida: An Identification Guide and Atlas, is coming out soon!!!

Pre-order is now available through University Press of Florida.  Great discount available before March 31st!
Apply discount code:  AU318   http://upf.com/book....d=9781683400332

 

Oh, yeah!  Nice!  Do we know how exhaustive this volume will be?  Is it a big, fat "Fishes-of" kind of book?  Or a slim, here's a list of the fish with minimal species accounts?  I'll be buying one regardless, but want to know how excited I should be

[blakemarkwell]

Hopefully Gerald has more insight than I do but it appears to be a robust and professional treatment with the length of the book just under 500 pages.

 

According to the table of contents, it will have all the formally recognized Florida Pteronotropis but will not have a species account for the Alafia shiner (= P. thompsoni) nor P. colei (but it may make mention of them in the P. metallicus account). Also, remember that P. harperi was appropriately moved from Notropis to Pteronotropis, which is treated as such in the book.

[itsme]

Hopefully Gerald has more insight than I do but it appears to be a robust and professional treatment with the length of the book just under 500 pages.

 

According to the table of contents, it will have all the formally recognized Florida Pteronotropis but will not have a species account for the Alafia shiner (= P. thompsoni) nor P. colei (but it may make mention of them in the P. metallicus account). Also, remember that P. harperi was appropriately moved from Notropis to Pteronotropis, which is treated as such in the book.

Oh, cool thanks!  Do you have  a link to the harperi paper?  I didn't know about that.  Thanks!

[blakemarkwell]

It's been talked about for a while but it is mentioned in some depth in the attached publication. It's the most recent as far as I know but I'm far from a professional. 

Attached Files

•  cyprinidae - pteronotropis - phylogeography of signipinnis, euryzonus, and hypselopterus - mayden and allen.pdf   3.12MB   108 downloads

[gerald]

The map Mark posted above is from that Mayden & Allen paper.  "P. colei" is shown on the map, but is not mentioned by that name anywhere else in the text.  Apparently it is "P. sp. cf. metallicus" in the text, which includes both "P. colei" in northeast FL (St Johns River) and the Alafia shiner in west-central FL.  Also, there's another map showing two distinct forms of signipinnis: "true" signipinnis in LA,MS, AL, and "sp. cf. signipinnis" to the east in AL and FL. 

 

 

It's been talked about for a while but it is mentioned in some depth in the attached publication. It's the most recent as far as I know but I'm far from a professional. 

[Doug_Dame]

The map Mark posted above is from that Mayden & Allen paper.  "P. colei" is shown on the map, but is not mentioned by that name anywhere else in the text.  Apparently it is "P. sp. cf. metallicus" in the text, which includes both "P. colei" in northeast FL (St Johns River) and the Alafia shiner in west-central FL.  Also, there's another map showing two distinct forms of signipinnis: "true" signipinnis in LA,MS, AL, and "sp. cf. signipinnis" to the east in AL and FL. 

 

 

 

I don't really understand phylogenetic/cladistic analysis very well, but my impression from Mayden & Allen was that there really wasn't support in the (available) data for the idea that "alafia" and "colei" were different. (They look different to me, but apparently I am easily tricked by mere morphology.) 

 

And my icon is a faux-signipinnis from the far-eastern part of the range. Sigh.

[gerald]

Thanks Doug, I think you're right.  I read this on page 10, but wasn't sure what to make of it: 

"The P. metallicus clade includes two major subclades (PP = 1.0; Figure 5). One clade includes only an undescribed species (P. sp. cf. metallicus) from the Alafia and St. Johns rivers. The second clade includes only P. metallicus, and both clades received strong support (PP = 0.1). Additional, strongly supported genetic structuring exists within both . sp. cf. metallicus and P. metallicus. Structure within P. sp. cf. metallicus was strongly supported divergences between and within the Alafia and St. John’s rivers (PP = 0.96–1.0); some drainage structure occurred in P. metallicus but not along independent drainages.

[Michael Wolfe]

"The P. metallicus clade includes two major subclades (PP = 1.0; Figure 5). One clade includes only an undescribed species (P. sp. cf. metallicus) from the Alafia and St. Johns rivers. The second clade includes only P. metallicus, and both clades received strong support (PP = 0.1). Additional, strongly supported genetic structuring exists within both . sp. cf. metallicus and P. metallicus. Structure within P. sp. cf. metallicus was strongly supported divergences between and within the Alafia and St. Johns rivers (PP = 0.961.0); some drainage structure occurred in P. metallicus but not along independent drainages.

Ugh. Cell smashers.

[fundulus]

The whole point of Mayden & Allen's work is to discover patterns of recent common ancestry; color especially in fish don't mean much. It's all about the great shibboleth DNA......

[blakemarkwell]

Doug and Gerald, you guys interpreted the text in the same manner as me (not saying that's necessarily right, though!) in that for the ND2, Alafia and St. Johns populations of P. metallicus (=P. cf. metallicus/P. colei) show definite structuring between the two rivers but the sequence divergence is relatively shallow. These populations are in turn sister to the remaining P. metallicus populations from Ochlocknee, St. Marks, Suwannee, and St. Marys rivers, which as a united clade do show relatively strong sequence divergence in relation to the Alafia/St. Johns clade.

 

And yes, the oft-repeated "gene tress are not species trees" is coming to mind too but I'm not good at distinguishing the nuances of these papers, either.