21 replies to this topic

[siem]

Hello everyone, I am from Europe and have been keeping fish for over 40 years. I have several North American species, which are very rare on this continent. A year ago I obtained fry from the Southern Redbelly dace, they were about 1" and colorless. 

They seem healthy but their behavior is puzzling me... and there is barely any information on keeping them in a tank.

They are a bit over 3" now but still colorless, very shy and make burrows in the sand where they all hide for the day, only to come out at feeding time. Initially I thought they might be sick, it was seasonal or that it is because of the temperature... during the summer the tank was 77 degrees for a couple of weeks and some began to get red bellies then, but it did fade when the temperature got back down under ±70 again. Last month I accidentally put the light on early in the morning, and to my surprise they all had red bellies and were swimming around the tank. You would think that the light is the problem but it is only a 10w led strip, and the tank is heavily planted, it is covered with floating plants too so it is only a very low light tank. I checked on other occasions they do color up and get active at night.

Is it normal behavior, how can I make them come out and have their colors during the day ? Do they need dither fish?

The water is 64,5 degrees, pH 7,3 GH6 KH4 NO3<10 

There is no traffic that can scare them, I have a whole bunch of tanks here with all sorts of fish under similar conditions, they don't have this problem. 

Edited by siem, 05 January 2020 - 11:52 AM.

[gerald]

Is there any possibility that stray electricity is leaking into the tank from a pump, heater, or light?

Also, is the tank near the floor or up high?  Some fish become nervous when their tank is below human eye-level.

[siem]

Thanks for thinking along ! The aquarium is on a typical aquarium stand (±26" high)

Are Redbelly dace particular to that or more difficult to keep as other (tropical) fish?

It's a good thought, but I'm pretty sure electricity isn't leaking, it doesn't have a heater, the ledstrip is separated from the tank by a glass box (that was designed to keep fluorescent fixtures dry) it is filtered by an Eheim. There are also some shrimp in the tank, they're doing fine.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Burrowing behavior? That is not a SRBD behavior that I have seen or heard of. Are you certain that what you have are actually southern redbelly dace? They are typically fairly bold and active fish. I see why Gerald wondered about stray voltage.  Have any photos?

[siem]

Fair question, I have wondered about them being a different species as I was told they would color up soon, and when they finally did during a heatwave last summer it wasn't anything like the pictures on the web. They had red bellies, but the top half was still pale/sand colored. Still, the body shape matches. Are there any similar US fish that get red bellies but keep a very light color otherwise?

 

I have never been able to take good pictures of fish, they are pretty bad but you get a general idea of shape and color.

 

 

This is the best picture I have

 

 4062.jpg   55.25KB   2 downloads

 

 

It seems that they are bluish that is a camera artefact this fuzzy picture (taken w/o flash) shows the color as you would see it... about the same as the sand.

 

 4064.jpg   42.21KB   2 downloads

 

Here they are in one of the burrows they made.

 

 4061.jpg   44.84KB   2 downloads

 

On the picture they appear to have coloration/bars but that is something caused by the flash and not something you would actually see... they are pretty uniformly sand colored.

Edited by siem, 05 January 2020 - 09:50 PM.

[Matt DeLaVega]

Well, they look like washed out SRBD. I think the light colored substrate is at least part of the problem. I believe they would color up if it were darker. Still not sure about their behavior. Hopefully some additional ideas pop up.

[siem]

I turned the light on this morning and they were swimming around and had red bellies and the brown lateral stripe, but couldn't take a picture as soon as it gets on they go to hide in one of their burrows and loose color. 

You might be right about the sand, but I haven't had problems with other fish as long as there are enough floating plants. I think I'll put a fluorescent tube over it see if another color temperature/spectrum makes any difference.

[littlen]

I agree that they are very pale in coloration possibly due to the sand.  But they look very healthy otherwise.  Not sure what your entire tank setup looks like (can you provide a picture?) but it is possible that the environment makes them nervous.  The huddling behavior on the sand is not common.  Search YouTube for some videos of them in the wild for ideas on what their natural habitat looks like and maybe you could switch things up a little to make them more comfortable.  Do you have any significant flow?  While it isn't necessary, I always find these fish in areas of moderate flow.  Adding a simple powerhead could change their behavior a lot.  I've seen it happen.  They often 'play' in the current.  Are they near other tanks where perhaps they see a predatory species?  Just throwing ideas out there. 

 

While they don't always have bright red bellies, you should still see more coloration than you do now.  Good luck.

[siem]

Yes they seem healthy they've never been sick and they have grown well. I changed the led strip for an old fluorescent tube that gives off maybe half of the light and has a more red/blue spectrum but this caused them to freak out.

I have been thinking for a long time they might be extremely skittish much like wild caught fish because they hide all the time but when I work in tank and vacuum the substrate they come right up and I have to be careful not to suck them in.

There aren't any predatory fish in sight... maybe too many plants makes them claustrophobic or something? I will take a bunch out and put rocks on the bottom, with the filter outlet above it so it is more like a river, thanks for the suggestion.

[Matt DeLaVega]

SRBD are also typically found in small streams with a heavy canopy. I wonder if this behavior is due to the substrate and light intensity combined. I do frequently find them over sand but in heavy shade. Also they associate with deeper darker holes in their native waters. I would try adding some larger darker river rock on top of the sand and experiment with light intensity and spectrum as you suggested.

 

I agree with Nick, they look healthy other than being washed out. They do seem to blanch out more quickly and more completely than some minnows. If you put them in a white bucket, the change is immediate. They are also typically very washed out when collected in high turbid water.

 

Obviously blanching out is a camouflage/defense mechanism. That would indicate stress right. That huddling behavior looks stress induced. I bet it's all related.

 

Good luck. Keep us posted.

[swampfish]

I am currently having a similar situation with northern redbelly dace. They are fish that I originally got from Konrad Schmidt in Minnesota. I keep them in a 350 gallon stock tank outdoors with a water lily and Najas during the summer, bringing them in for the winter. All are at room temperature in my basement, which is about 62 degrees F at this time, having dropped during the fall from 72 degrees F. None are showing any color other than trace amounts of red or yellow, but none are washed out.

 

About 25-30 of the largest, full-grown fish, original Minnesota fish and their largest kids, are in a 29 gallon standard bare-bottomed tank at knee level with floating hornwort. About 40-50 of the smallest fish, all kids and grand kids of the original fish are in a similar 29 gallon standard bare-bottomed tank next to them with floating hornwort. Both tanks are lit with daylight single tube fluorescent aquarium lights. The fish in both tanks exhibit normal behavior, swimming around the tank during the day and not being skittish.

 

On the other side of the same rack at eye-level is a 23 gallon long tank (36" long, 12" high, 12" wide) tank with rooted plants and no floating plants illuminated with a 2-tube T-12 fluorescent shop light whose ballast died about a month ago. It is now illuminated with a "one-tube" high output LED shop light. The 20-25 medium-sized kids (about 2" long) of the other northern redbelly dace hide in a tight cluster under an aquatic fern when I'm around. If I'm sneaky so they don't see me, they swim around the tank normally during the day and hang in the open water during the night. I've been planning on switching them with a 30 gallon tank of lined topminnows below them at knee height but haven't got around to it. This second tank has a combination of rooted and floating plants with a one-tube fluorescent light. 

 

By the way, the same 23 gallon tank last winter housed 7 rainbow shiners and 8 blacknose dace. The rainbow shiners acted normally in the more open half of the tank and the blacknose dace hid among the plants in the more heavily-planted half of the tank when I was present. Both species swam around the tank when they didn't see me, although each species tended to keep to their half of the tank.  

 

My best guess is that the higher light levels from the lack of floating stem plants intimidated both the northern redbelly and blacknose dace. 

 

Phil Nixon

Illinois

[siem]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Could it be that they become this way if they aren't raised with artificial lighting?

[littlen]

I find that a lot of the behavior of small, prey-species like the dace is naturally inherent.  Try keeping the lights off entirely for a couple days.  See if that changes their willingness to come out and stay out.

BTW, what other native US species are you keeping? 

[gerald]

Do you by chance have a long pointy nose and skinny legs?    

[Doug_Dame]

Do you by chance have a long pointy nose and skinny legs?  

 

I am not a great linguist, but per Google, if he's from Holland, he's Meneer Siem.

 

He'd have to be in Germany to be Herr(on) Siem. 

 

Unless of course he's a stork ...

 

The various RBD I've seen in the wild have all been in shallow, moving water. 

[siem]

Do you by chance have a long pointy nose and skinny legs?  

 

Yes I do ! 

It seems every little change in lighting freaks them out more, like putting the led strip on the other side of the tank or changing to an old fluorescent tube with half the output and another spectrum. Like I wrote it is like they are nocturnal they are happily swimming around in total darkness with colors, but turning on a flash light will freak them out as well. I will try redecorating the tank with rocks and less plants see what that does.

[gerald]

... and stop wearing feather hats!

[L Link]

I have kept mountain redbelly dace (Chrosomus oreas) on multiple occasions, and indeed have some now, and I have noticed that they often color up to a greater extent during the night, and also move farther up in the water column. I always just figured this was normal behavior, as these fish don't seem at all uneasy during the day. 

Here's something interesting, though: I have gone out with a dipnet at night during the winter and noticed mountain redbellies swimming around actively in a creek where they seemed to be absent during the day, so perhaps this is more of a natural behavior than one might think. 

 

Hope you get them figured out!! I have greatly enjoyed my redbellies and find them to be a wonderful aquarium species.

[siem]

Sorry I never updated this topic. I put in black gravel and they colored up in like five minutes and have kept their striking colors ever since.

Also they don't really huddle anymore except when frightened. It's odd that they are quite skittish when they see movement outside the tank, but maintenance inside the tank doesn't bother them at all, I can hand feed them under water. They look great but haven't managed to get them to spawn.

[El Todd]

I wonder if you had actually had some sort of equipment causing vibration that was stressing them and then changing the gravel dampened or changed that.

 

I keep a lot of MRBD - around 35 total in 3 different tanks all wild caught, and a couple friends on here that I go collecting with also keep them. None of the conditions you described had and adverse effect on mine and they are all colored up on light gravel.

 

There's a few articles on fish sensitivity to low level frequencies and base if you look up the topic via google search.