19 replies to this topic

[Smis]

Hello everyone

 

I have some questions about keeping a community of dace and maybe some pumpkin seeds for my pond in the Midwest.

 

I have two ponds that I constructed almost two year ago. They have a continuous flow of water that keeps the water clean and well oxygenated. They are connected through a series of short streams and waterfalls, but are impassable to fish (at least to fish trying to travel upstream anyway). The lower and bigger pond has goldfish and a few bluegills, but the upper pond remains void of fish. The upper pond sits between an upper and lower waterfall and was really designed as a gentle “plunge pool” with a gradual gravel tailout as part of a greater stream segment. At its deepest the upper pond is probably 24-30” deep, ~5’ wide, and 12-15’ long and has steady current (certainly not swift though).

 

I never had any interest in adding goldfish to this pond as they would be happier in the much larger pond below. I also find native species more interesting. I have kept native fish (bluegill, perch, largemouth bass) in the past, but they either outgrew the space or died over the winter. The ponds I have now are much bigger and are generally much healthier ecosystems and I’m now looking to add a sustainable community of smaller natives to the upper pond. The stream-like habit I have guided my research and led me to various minnow species, as well as this forum. Southern red bellied dace and red-sided dace piqued my interest in particular for their appearance and affinity for jumping out of the water to eat bugs. I’ve had midge hatches almost daily for the last two months and to have a schooling fish that eats this way would be fantastic. I’d certainly be willing to supplement their diet but I think the natural ecosystem of my pond is capable of supplying the majority of their diet. My bluegills overwintered with no supplement food from me for what it’s worth.

 

This brings me to my questions:

 

1.What temperature range do red-sided dace and SRBD require? 

 

Seems like the upper limit is around 70-75 for red-sided dace and maybe a little higher for SRBD? I haven’t found much on the lower limits because most people keep them in aquariums. Would they be hardy enough to over winter? The pond surface will most definitely freeze even if the waterfall is left running year round. I have a tank I can put them in the winter but would prefer not to.

 

2. Are these two species compatible with one another? Are they compatible with other natives? I’d like to have a few pumpkin seeds as well

 

3. Do dace travel over waterfalls? I would prefer if they stayed in the upper pond.

 

Upper pond looking upstream

 

Upper pond looking downstream

 

Waterfall that upper pond flow into

 

Lilly pad are coming in now and more submerged plants coming soon.

 

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

[JasonL]

That is a really nice setup.  Major props.

 

I will give you my 2 cents.  I have a similar outdoor setup but on a smaller scale.

 

Dace should be fine to overwinter under ice.  The main issue with them is heat not cold.  That said, your ecosystem appears well oxygenated and as long as it’s not in full sun I think you would be ok.  You could try dace with Pumpkinseeds and see what happens.  

 

You seem to have a fair amount of space and microhabitats.  I would consider adding other species of shiners/minnows local to your area    They will also eat insect larvae and are almost guaranteed to survive in your region since they already are living in your area.

 

I have stocked my upper pools with various shiner species, darters, and stonerollers.  Eventually most of them find their way down to the larger lower pool.   Your setup is much larger so maybe that won’t be the case but generally for me the fish tend to funnel down not up my stream habitat.

 

Good luck and again what you have there is quite nice.

[Smis]

That is a really nice setup.  Major props.

 

I will give you my 2 cents.  I have a similar outdoor setup but on a smaller scale.

 

Dace should be fine to overwinter under ice.  The main issue with them is heat not cold.  That said, your ecosystem appears well oxygenated and as long as it’s not in full sun I think you would be ok.  You could try dace with Pumpkinseeds and see what happens.  

 

You seem to have a fair amount of space and microhabitats.  I would consider adding other species of shiners/minnows local to your area    They will also eat insect larvae and are almost guaranteed to survive in your region since they already are living in your area.

 

I have stocked my upper pools with various shiner species, darters, and stonerollers.  Eventually most of them find their way down to the larger lower pool.   Your setup is much larger so maybe that won’t be the case but generally for me the fish tend to funnel down not up my stream habitat.

 

Good luck and again what you have there is quite nice.

Thanks for the reply Jason! My main concern was them dying over the winter. This pond gets a couple of hours of direct sunlight in the afternoon but is otherwise heavily shaded. My lilypads should provide some nice cover as well.

 

What other kinds of shiners and minnows do you have? I also looked into darter but they seemed to be a little more particular in their care and environment. I'm not too concerned about a few fish working their way downstream, just as long as I have a permanent population up top.

 

Thanks again for the reply

[doubleatraining]

Thanks for the reply Jason! My main concern was them dying over the winter. This pond gets a couple of hours of direct sunlight in the afternoon but is otherwise heavily shaded. My lilypads should provide some nice cover as well.

 

What other kinds of shiners and minnows do you have? I also looked into darter but they seemed to be a little more particular in their care and environment. I'm not too concerned about a few fish working their way downstream, just as long as I have a permanent population up top.

 

Thanks again for the reply

You can put a simple floating de-icer in your upper pond if you are worried about them freezing. I use them in my stock tanks and they work great. They don't really heat it up as much as keep it at a temp that wont' freeze....its still cold as crap. LOL

[Matt DeLaVega]

Your location would be very helpful. Maybe you posted it and I missed it.

[JasonL]

Thanks for the reply Jason! My main concern was them dying over the winter. This pond gets a couple of hours of direct sunlight in the afternoon but is otherwise heavily shaded. My lilypads should provide some nice cover as well.

 

What other kinds of shiners and minnows do you have? I also looked into darter but they seemed to be a little more particular in their care and environment. I'm not too concerned about a few fish working their way downstream, just as long as I have a permanent population up top.

 

Thanks again for the reply

As long as your pond doesn’t freeze completely solid, I think you should be ok.  I live in zone 6/7 and my ponds will ice over periodically, sometimes for several weeks, but I’ve never had any significant winter kill that I am aware of.  Again, it doesn’t freeze solid and my max depth is around 18-24 inches.

 

My fish species are all from local watersheds and include orange spotted sunfish, bantam sunfish,  steelcolor and golden shiners, stonerollers,  mimic/channel/sand shiners, and a few fundulus species.   All are easily replaced if needed and they all have no issues surviving the local climate since this is where they live normally.   I know you like dace but practically speaking your local species would probably work as well or better and provide just as much viewing interest from above. 
 

I threw in several rainbow darters just for the heck of it a few years ago and they have all survived.   I don’t give them any sort of special care or food.  They must be eating whatever bugs or inverts fall into the water.   I don’t see them much but sometimes I’ll see one perched on a rock which is pretty cool.  I think a half dozen could survive in your water feature with no special care.

 

Good luck.  I think your species suggestions would work, but I would not overlook what’s in your local creeks/watersheds either.   Double check on the legality depending on what state you live in but otherwise you should be good to go.

[Smis]

Your location would be very helpful. Maybe you posted it and I missed it.

I'm in Chicago

[Smis]

As long as your pond doesn’t freeze completely solid, I think you should be ok.  I live in zone 6/7 and my ponds will ice over periodically, sometimes for several weeks, but I’ve never had any significant winter kill that I am aware of.  Again, it doesn’t freeze solid and my max depth is around 18-24 inches.

 

My fish species are all from local watersheds and include orange spotted sunfish, bantam sunfish,  steelcolor and golden shiners, stonerollers,  mimic/channel/sand shiners, and a few fundulus species.   All are easily replaced if needed and they all have no issues surviving the local climate since this is where they live normally.   I know you like dace but practically speaking your local species would probably work as well or better and provide just as much viewing interest from above. 
 

I threw in several rainbow darters just for the heck of it a few years ago and they have all survived.   I don’t give them any sort of special care or food.  They must be eating whatever bugs or inverts fall into the water.   I don’t see them much but sometimes I’ll see one perched on a rock which is pretty cool.  I think a half dozen could survive in your water feature with no special care.

 

Good luck.  I think your species suggestions would work, but I would not overlook what’s in your local creeks/watersheds either.   Double check on the legality depending on what state you live in but otherwise you should be good to go.

Thanks! I'll definitely look into those. I used to do a lot of fishing in Wisconsin and Michigan (haven't recently obviously), but I should be able to get out to my local streams in Illinois soon. Ill keep my eyes open. 

[swampfish]

I agree with doubleatraining that a stock tank heater would be useful to you. We live in east central Illinois a few miles south of Champaign. Our main pond is similar in size to your upper pond. It is ten by eight feet and 33 inches deep. The bottom is stair-stepped for plants and It holds about 1200 gallons. We installed it in 1992 and is a testament to the quality of TetraPond liners. 

 

Over the years, we have stocked it variously with goldfish, northern red-belly dace, steel-color shiners, golden shiners, and black-lined topminnows. All have winter-killed and all have survived depending on the severity of the winter. The fish survive mild winters like this last one that only got down to 2 degrees F, but all died in the previous winter that got down to -14 degrees F. 

 

We have a waterfall running into it, but do not run it during the winter to avoid freeze-ups and super-cooling the pond. My understanding is that running water will eliminate the 4 degrees C bottom water in a pond, causing it to be more likely to freeze to the bottom. We have run a tank heater and also an air stone previously to keep an open area with good results fish-wise. We discontinued them because our dogs became fascinated with them, and we were concerned about the dogs falling through the ice. We also had some problems with mice chewing the electrical cords during the winter. 

 

We currently stock the pond with low-quality goldfish and/or northern red-belly dace and take our chances. Low-quality goldfish are commonly being given away by others, and I easily reproduce the dace in other stock tanks during the summer. Unlike southern red-belly dace that need stream conditions to reproduce, northerns reproduce in large tanks without water flow. 

 

As you are probably aware, northern red-belly dace are easily collected in Wisconsin and Michigan. 

 

Phil Nixon

[JasonL]

Yeah given the fact that you live in northern IL, I would probably follow the above suggestions for winter.  We don’t get nearly as cold where I live in here in KY so winter kill is really not an issue for me using local species.

[swampfish]

At least part of our winter kills are apparently due to bioload. We live in a rural location with many trees surrounded by crop fields, so the wind blows fallen leaves into the pond. We've spread nets over the top of the pond, but many leaves still get in and rot over the winter. We never rake our leaves because the winds off the open fields blow them all away except for those that get caught in the pond. Smis appears to have many trees, but a much more protected locale. Smis also appears to be much better at clearing out fallen leaves than we based on how clean the pond bottoms look in the photos.

 

We also have underwater plants that die-back after weeks of ice and snow on the pond. It is not uncommon for us to have three or more inches of snow on the pond for 2-3 weeks at a time. This shuts off light to the aquatic plants, causing die-back. Smis apparently does not leave aquatic plants in the pond over the winter.

 

My understanding is that the aeration or tank heater is to allow air exchange more than anything else. With cleaner ponds, Smis may have better luck wintering fish than we. With that said, our pond has appeared to have frozen all the way to the bottom several times. I don't know of any fish that will survive that, although I have chipped fish out of freezing slush and had them survive. Most survived only a few days, but some lived for years after.

 

Phil Nixon

[Smis]

Well I added a half dozen redside dace and southern red belly dace back around the end of April. It only took a couple of days for all of them to swim over the waterfall and into the lower pond. I thought they would quickly become an expensive meal for my bluegills, but luckily they proved themselves too elusive for my lazy gills that have gotten accustomed to hand fed worm feedings. The dace seem to be doing well despite the hot summer we're having, although I'm not sure if they'll be able to withstand another week in the 90s with water temps already pushing 80 degrees. 

 

I'm still trying to think of ways to keep fish in my upper pond and I had all but given up when one day I say a couple dace swimming in it again.

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-10 at 9.10.43 AM by Stephen MIS, on Flickr

 

The dace had to jump the main current of the waterfall or scrambled up the little side channel on the left side of the picture above. It's barely visible but it located above and just to the right of the pink impatiens. Either way it's very impressive to me that they can do this. They only stayed up there for a couple days, but I'm happy that they have the option to move between ponds if they chose.

 

DSCN1908 by Stephen MIS, on Flickr

 

A week or so later and I spot minnow fry swimming in the upper pond. They dace had successfully spawned. I haven't identified if they're red belly or redside dace yet. The adults looked like red belly dace but the fry look like redside to me.

 

DSCN1906 by Stephen MIS, on Flickr

 

DSCN1933 by Stephen MIS, on Flickr

 

They're small and hard to see still, but this picture probably gives you the best look at them.

[littlen]

This is fantastic.  Congrats on the success, and thank you for sharing.  What a terrific looking pond.

 

[Matt DeLaVega]

Nice. Couple thoughts. Shade cloth might be helpful. I have a much larger pond that I only run aeration during the night during the hottest part of summer. It helps in my situation. Maybe you could reduce flow during the day and increase at night.

[Michael Wolfe]

Very nice update. Keep us informed. I tend to agree with Matt in less aeration/ circulation when it get hot.

[Smis]

Thanks! The shade cloth had crossed my mind. I'm assuming you avoid aerating during the day to minimize stirring up and distributing warming day time water throughout the entire pond? That wasn't my thought process but that makes sense. It's cooled off the last couple days so the fish got a little relief so well see what happens

[Michael Wolfe]

Yep. I boiled some here in Georgia by having lots of circulation. Pretty soon it was all hot. Killed em all. Without circulation and with water lilies the bottom stays nice a cool.

Yours is bigger and in ground so maybe not as much fluctuation but I would still be cautious.

[Matt DeLaVega]

The bubbles from aeration do very little themselves. What they do is move water and expose it to the surface. So it creates current. Limiting current during the hottest part of the day will help keep temps cooler overall.

[brackishdude]

I'm envious!!  Stocking issues with that beautiful pond are a nice problem to have!

[still]

Hi everyone, I'm very new to all the pond topic, and I have a question about aeration. Is it that necessary? I wanna make a small pond this spring, and I try to collect all information I need. Can you recommend any aerator? I came across tones of comparisons on the internet (like this for instance). Every time they recommend different brands, I don't know which one to stop on.