There has been some debate on other boards about the splitting or lack their of regarding the longear sunfish. There are those, including the recent MI Atlas, that consider L. peltastes as a distinct species. There are others, most of the rest of the country, that aren't quite so sure as of yet.
While the authors of the MI book, apparently make a good case for it's elevation to full species level, it has not been formally recognized. It appears that the AFS list of accepted names is currently reviewing the available literature and this may become official in the near future.
I look forward to other peopl's opinions on this. Should it be split or not? Where is the geographical dividing line? What role should gene work play in the separation?
Lepomis megalotis vs. peltastes?
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, Aug 30 2006 04:18 PM
48 replies to this topic
#2
Guest_wolfie8000_*
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:05 AM
Can you give some links on some info. I could not find much info on peltastes. I found one page that talked alittle bit about the differences.
http://animaldiversi..._megalotis.html
Clear at the bottom of the page all it says is;
Some authorities split the species into two subspecies. The central longear sunfish, L. megalotis megalotis, is generally found in the southeastern portion of the range, on the east side of the Mississippi River, and the southern half of Ohio and Pennsylvania. The northern longear sunfish, L. megalotis peltastes, on the other hand, is found primarily in the northwest portion of the longear’s range, from Wisconsin, Minnesota, northern Ohio through Michigan and into Ontario.
Trautman (1957) distinguishes between the two subspecies by saying the northern longear sunfish, L. megalotis megalotis, is generally smaller, with a less pronounced opercular flap that is horizontal in orientation. The central longear, L. m. peltastes, is generally larger and has a longer opercular flap at a 45° angle, posterior end higher.
http://animaldiversi..._megalotis.html
Clear at the bottom of the page all it says is;
Some authorities split the species into two subspecies. The central longear sunfish, L. megalotis megalotis, is generally found in the southeastern portion of the range, on the east side of the Mississippi River, and the southern half of Ohio and Pennsylvania. The northern longear sunfish, L. megalotis peltastes, on the other hand, is found primarily in the northwest portion of the longear’s range, from Wisconsin, Minnesota, northern Ohio through Michigan and into Ontario.
Trautman (1957) distinguishes between the two subspecies by saying the northern longear sunfish, L. megalotis megalotis, is generally smaller, with a less pronounced opercular flap that is horizontal in orientation. The central longear, L. m. peltastes, is generally larger and has a longer opercular flap at a 45° angle, posterior end higher.
#3
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 12:12 AM
I could be described as a sunfish fanatic (currently have 16 species of sunfish) and think I can provide some info to this topic. To start out scientific names in the previous post are backwards. The northern is L. m. peltastes and the central is L. m. megalotis. I did my senior research project on the differences in the ohio northern and central populations when I was a college undergraduate student. Although that was a prety limited study I did see some differences. I didn't do much qauntifying but I can say that as a general rule what is writen in the trautman book holds true. The northerns atain about half the maximum size of the centrals and the northerns do have an upward angled opercle flap. There were also some prety distinct differences in coloration. I have bread both ohio forms and currently have some of both in captivity. I have also seen longears in missouri and tennessee and I'm not too convinced that ohio centrals and tennessee centrals are not just as different from one another as are northerns and centrals in ohio. I think there is some serious potential for a spliter to do some genetics work on the longears. I could see based on morphological characteristics how you could possibly give northerns full species status and split the centrals into 3 or more subspecies, especially if the genetics backed it up. Maybe when I am done with my masters I'll go back and do some morphological work with longears but i'll have to find someone else to colaborate with me and do the genetics because I don't have a clue how that stuff works and don't want to know. Anyways hope this helps and if you want to see pictures of ohio fish let me know mine are too big to attach to the post.
#6
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 08:41 AM
if you want to see pictures of ohio fish let me know mine are too big to attach to the post.
smbass,
We would love to see any photos you might have to share. You can e-mail them to me and I would be happy to resize them for you.
#8
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:57 AM
too skipjacks picture... that looks a little different from ohio peltastes, it has no red on the opercle flap. Usually ohio fish have a large red mark at the back edge. I say usually intentionally because this is true about 95% of the time. The others some times look more like ohio centrals and have just a couple small blotches of red. Yours does not appear to have any red, what drainage is it from? Great lakes or Mississippi?
#9
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:58 AM
There has been some debate on other boards about the splitting or lack their of regarding the longear sunfish. There are those, including the recent MI Atlas, that consider L. peltastes as a distinct species. There are others, most of the rest of the country, that aren't quite so sure as of yet.
While the authors of the MI book, apparently make a good case for it's elevation to full species level, it has not been formally recognized. It appears that the AFS list of accepted names is currently reviewing the available literature and this may become official in the near future.
I look forward to other peopl's opinions on this. Should it be split or not? Where is the geographical dividing line? What role should gene work play in the separation?
I'm still not sold that with longears we're looking at something besides geographically graded variation. One would expect variation within and between populations of any species. Since longears are so widespread, it makes sense that there are well-defined regional populations. But like the man said, by all means let's look at DNA, and I'm not even a real gene jockey!
#10
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:04 AM
too skipjacks picture... that looks a little different from ohio peltastes, it has no red on the opercle flap. Usually ohio fish have a large red mark at the back edge. I say usually intentionally because this is true about 95% of the time. The others some times look more like ohio centrals and have just a couple small blotches of red. Yours does not appear to have any red, what drainage is it from? Great lakes or Mississippi?
Skipjack's fish came from my home area (northern Illinois). I took a few shots of Longears from the Kankakee river and it's tributaries this spring and summer. All photos came from a 30 mile stretch of the river from the Indiana state line (Kankakee county) to and including portions of the Will county stretch of the river.
It's quite the mixed bag as far as the red on the opercle flap in this area. Some have partial red while others have no red at all. None have full red.
Below photos are random (some decent some bad). I included one side by side comparison of and odd looking fish.
Attached Images
#11
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:26 AM
Here's a male longear from Sipsey Fork in the Bankhead National Forest in NW Alabama. I'd say that we're seeing a lot of variation in the photos posted in this thread. It occurs to me that I've never photographed a female longear... does anyone have any female photos?
Attached Images
#12
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:51 AM
does anyone have any female photos?
I'm guilty of not taking photos of females. At the end of this season I realized that I didn't take a single photo of a bluegill! I must admit that I often fail to photograph some of the more common/less colorful fishes. I'll make sure and change this next season.
#14
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:18 PM
You arn't kidding when you say they are a mixed bag, and being in the mississippi drainage sort of sets them up for being questionable as far as pure northern longears. I know that there are populations in the upper mississippi that are considered to be northerns but they would in theory have been more recently exposed to central populations than populations in the greatlakes drainage. Some look like definate northerns with the good upward angle and large red blotch but some look more like centrals especially the second one that still has the hook in it's mouth. The other thing I noticed is they seem somewhat large on your hand. Any idea of the length of some of the bigger ones? I have never found a northern in ohio over 5.5inches in total length. and even after being in captivity and well cared for for 3 years I still don't think either of my original males are larger than that. The alabama fish that is in the next post is an obvious central to me. Has the nearly paralel flap with no red blotches at all. One other thing I noticed is some of these fish have rather large opercle flaps also (over all area) and that to me is atypical of northerns too. I have seen a few northerns from michigan too but they look much like the ohio northerns. Also as far as females, i would say females and jveniles it's almost impossible to seperate them. I have resized my pics and will add several to this post of both male and female and both northern and centrals from ohio. These fish all happen to be from either big darby creek (centrals) or the blanchard river (northerns) but I have seen both from multiple rivers in ohio.
The first picture is a 15 month old male northern that is a result of the following male and female spawning.
the next 2 are 2 pictures of the same male northern
this and the next are the same fish this one is when it was not spawning
next picture is a female northern durring spawning courtship (anyone who has spawned longears knows females chage color instantly durring courtship)
and last we have three male central longears
I guess I still need a female central picture.
One final thaught... I wonder if rather than being a distinct line where you switch from northern to central if it is not more of a continuem. so the further the populations are seperated the more distinct they look. for example my centrals still have a some what upward angle too the flap but they lack any large red blotches and have small ones. but the picture from alabama and fish I have seen in tennessee and missouri have no red and I have even seen some that have no white edge and just have a jet black flap.
The first picture is a 15 month old male northern that is a result of the following male and female spawning.
the next 2 are 2 pictures of the same male northern
this and the next are the same fish this one is when it was not spawning
next picture is a female northern durring spawning courtship (anyone who has spawned longears knows females chage color instantly durring courtship)
and last we have three male central longears
I guess I still need a female central picture.
One final thaught... I wonder if rather than being a distinct line where you switch from northern to central if it is not more of a continuem. so the further the populations are seperated the more distinct they look. for example my centrals still have a some what upward angle too the flap but they lack any large red blotches and have small ones. but the picture from alabama and fish I have seen in tennessee and missouri have no red and I have even seen some that have no white edge and just have a jet black flap.
#15
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:57 PM
Nice pics.
This population seems to get roughly 6" total length with a very few getting any larger. Typical large fish would run about 5.5". I've noticed longears in Southern Illinois get much larger than up here but need someone to get in the water with me in the souther portion of the state. I did some scouting this summer and feel many good photos could be generated from a trip to the area.
The other thing I noticed is they seem somewhat large on your hand. Any idea of the length of some of the bigger ones? I have never found a northern in ohio over 5.5inches in total length.
This population seems to get roughly 6" total length with a very few getting any larger. Typical large fish would run about 5.5". I've noticed longears in Southern Illinois get much larger than up here but need someone to get in the water with me in the souther portion of the state. I did some scouting this summer and feel many good photos could be generated from a trip to the area.
#20
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Posted 13 November 2006 - 11:15 PM
looks like a dollar sunfish should from the western part of their range. The picture is not real clear but the reason I say dollar (and tell me if this is true) is it appears to have some shiny blue flecks on the opercle. This is one of the identifying characteristics to seperate dollar from longears in the western part of the dollar range. Dollar sunfish on the eastern part of their range including florida do not have this. I caught a couple dollar sunfish recently at the convention in Missouri that look very similar to this one.
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