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Jack Dempseys:Native?


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#1 Guest_fishlvr_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 05:00 PM

While looking at the checklist of native species on the NANFA homepage, I noticed that Jack Dempseys where on the list and didn't have "exotic" next to it. So are these natives, or was the "exotic" not put there by accident?

#2 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:20 PM

Aren't they New World Cichlids? It's possible they range into the southern part of North America, I suppose (e.g. Mexico). Chris would know - he put the list together. He's not prone to errors of that sort either.

#3 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:26 PM

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia...._Dempsey_(fish)
the Jack Dempsey is "...native to Yucatan and Central America..."
Yucatan (Mexico) and Central America are part of North America. We have agreed on that here before. So yes, Jack Dempseys are North American native fish. So is my firemouth :)

#4 Guest_Irate Mormon_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 06:29 PM

I posted that WIKI as part of a disinformation campaign :---)

#5 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:18 PM

There are lots of cichlids native to North America because Central America is technically part of the continent. That means JDs, convicts, Midas and red devils, firemouths etc. are all native. The United States however only has one native cichlid, the Texas cichlid.

#6 Guest_fishlvr_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:26 PM

Oooooooh. Thanks guys. Maybe I could start a native cichlid tank...

#7 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 10:42 PM

Oooooooh. Thanks guys. Maybe I could start a native cichlid tank...

I've thought about that, too. But in addition to my firemouth, convict, and Honduran red point (all natives), I also have a chocolate and a severum (South Americans). Forgive that sacrilege, but I've had them since before I entered the native fish hobby. And they are cool.

One of these days, I still want a Managuense (a native cichlid from Lake Managua, in Nicaragua). Large, beautiful, and will kill anything else in the tank with it.

#8 Guest_AC-Editor_*

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:00 PM

To answer the original question, Yes, Jack Dempseys are native North American fishes because they naturally occur in northern Veracruz, near the extreme southern edge of the Nearctic Realm. They're one of several neotropical fishes that have disbursed into North America. (They've also widely been introduced elsewhere and are true exotics in North America as well.)

However, to clarify comments made by others, not all Mexican or Central American fishes are considered "North American." Look at the definition of North America in the opening comments of the checklist (http://www.nanfa.org...diversity.shtml ):

North America is herein defined not as the entire continent, but as the Nearctic zoogeographic realm. The Nearctic Realm includes the entire continental landmass, including Greenland, Alaska, Canada, the lower 48 states, and Mexico south to the where the Mexican plateau breaks down into the lowlands of Central America. Specifically, this includes land north of 18N on the Atlantic slope, and 16N on the Pacific slope of Mexico; the imaginary line drawn between these two latitudinal points corresponds roughly to the southern range limit of chiefly northern fishes such as minnows and suckers, and the northern range limit of the chiefly southern catfish family Heptapteridae. This is not a discrete boundary, but a broad transition zone where the continental plates of North and South America began pushing against each around three million years ago (or later). Areas below this line, including extreme southern (tropical) Mexico, are in the Neotropical Realm. So, too, are the Greater Antilles. Even though Cuba is just 150 km off the coast of Florida, and Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the United States, they're both giant peaks of a vast underwater mountain range that's part of South America. Fishes from Hawaii are also excluded in that they hail from the Oceania Realm.

Hope this clarifies things.

Chris Scharpf
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#9 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:30 PM

North America is herein defined not as the entire continent...

An arbitrary definition, and if you want to so define it for the purpose of your checklist, that's fine. However, it seems to me that most geographers consider Central America all the way down through (and including) Panama to be part of North America. So you'll have to please pardon me for considering my Central American fish to be North American.

A map of the major earth's crustal plates can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia....Plate_tectonics
http://geology.er.us...ern/plates.html
It can be seen that Central America is neither part of North America or South America structurally; it is on the Caribbean plate. Interestingly, according to this map, Cuba and eastern Siberia are structurally part of North America, although Siberia is considered by geographers to be part of Asia. Now I will not suggest that Siberian fish should be considered to be North American, unless they are also found east of the Bering Strait.

#10 Guest_AC-Editor_*

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:16 PM

An arbitrary definition, and if you want to so define it for the purpose of your checklist, that's fine. However, it seems to me that most geographers consider Central America all the way down through (and including) Panama to be part of North America. So you'll have to please pardon me for considering my Central American fish to be North American.


Not an arbitrary definition at all.

Most North Americans believe their continent encompasses Canada, México, the United States (including Hawaii), and the islands of the Greater Antilles (Bahamas, Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, etc.). They're right -- from a political perspective. Zoogeographers -- scientists who study the influence of geography on the distributions of animals -- have a different perspective. They divide the freshwater world into seven regions, or zoogeographic realms: Australian (Australia, New Zealand, New Guinea); Ethiopian (Africa and southern Arabia, also known as the Afrotropical Realm); Oriental (tropical Asia, also known as the Indomalaysian Realm); Palearctic (nontropical Asia and the northern tip of Africa); Neotropical (South and Central America and tropical México); Oceania (noncontinental islands, e.g., Guam, Fiji, Samoa); and the realm we’re concerned with, the Nearctic.

It's also the definition of North America used by most (if not all) ichthyologists, including the landmark books THE ZOOGEOGRAPHY OF NORTH AMERICAN FISHES and SYSTEMATICS, HISTORICAL ECOLOGY AND NORTH AMERICAN FISHES, and the upcoming NORTH AMERICAN FRESHWATER FISHES: EVOLUTION, ECOLOGY AND BEHAVIOR (http://bio.slu.edu/mayden/NAFF.html ).

Zoogeographic realms are divided into faunal provinces. The Nearctic (i.e., North American) Region consists of 15 such provinces, each draining different areas of land and having its own distinctive assemblage of animals. From north to south they are:

Arctic Archipelago Province -- It's not surprising that this largely frozen area, which comprises Greenland and the islands north of Canada's mainland, has the fewest number of freshwater fish species in the Nearctic Realm (eight).

Yukon/Mackenzie Province -- Includes all of mainland North America that drains into the Arctic Ocean east to the Melville Peninsula, up through Alaska to the Bering Sea, and to the Gulf of Alaska north of the Stikine River. May may be regarded as a transition zone between the Nearctic and Palearctic Realms since five species that occur here -- Arctic lamprey (Lampetra camtschatica), Arctic cisco (Coregonus autumnalis), least cisco (C. sardinella), inconnu (Stenodus leucichthys), Alaska blackfish (Dallia pectoralis) -- are also commonly found in Siberia.

Hudson Bay Province -- This huge area includes all drainages of Hudson and Ungava bays in northcentral U.S. and most of Canada.

Great Lakes/St. Lawrence Province -- Includes the seven Laurentian Great Lakes (Nipigon, Superior, Michigan, Huron, St. Clair, Erie, Ontario), the St. Lawrence River drainage, and the Atlantic drainages of Québec, Labrador and Newfoundland.

Cascadia Province -- West of the Continental Divide, Cascadia lies between the Columbia River to the south and the Stikine River to the north.

Northern Appalachian Province -- Includes Atlantic coastal drainages south of the St. Lawrence River through the Delaware River. Its only endemic fish is the Acadian whitefish (Coregonus huntsmani).

Mississippi Province -- Includes all of the U. S. and Canada drained by the Mississippi, Missouri and Ohio rivers, and a few headwater streams of some Atlantic Coastal and Mobile Basin tributaries collectively referred to as the Eastern Highlands.

Great Basin-Baja-Klamath-Sacramento Province -- This large area is sometimes divided into four smaller provinces, hence the long name. Includes over 200 endorheic (i.e., self-contained, with no drainage to the sea) basins of the Great Basin (the vast area of mountains and deserts between the western ridges of the Rocky Mountains and the eastern edge of the Sierra Nevada, and between the Columbia Colorado river basins); the Klamath and Rogue drainages on the California-Oregon border; the Sacramento-San Joaquin basin of California; and other coastal drainages and endorheic basins throughout Oregon, California and Baja California.

Central Appalachian Province -- Extends along the Atlantic Slope from the Susquehanna River drainage in upstate New York to the Edisto River drainage in South Carolina.

Colorado Province -- Includes the entire basin area historically drained by the once great but now emasculated Colorado River, flowing through some of the most arid terrain in North America.

Rio Grande Province -- Consists of the Rio Grande drainage from south-central Colorado through central México, plus several interior basins of north-central México that were formerly connected to the Rio Grande, and two independent streams of northwestern México (the ríos San Fernando and Soto la Marina) which share many fishes with the Rio Grande. Fauna includes the Rio Grande (or Texas) cichlid (Herichthys cyanoguttatus), the northernmost representative of the largely neotropical family Cichlidae, and the only cichlid native to the U.S.

Southeastern Province -- Extends from the Savannah River on the Atlantic Slope to the Lake Pontchartrain drainages of the Gulf Slope. Home to many extremely colorful minnows and darters, many of them endemic to the province.

Western Gulf Slope Province -- Includes all Gulf Coast drainages from the Calcasieu River in Louisiana to the Nueces River in Texas. Fauna includes to the Mexican tetra (Astyanax mexicanus), the northernmost representative of the largely neotropical family Characidae, and the only characin native to the U.S.

Sonoran-Sinaloan Coastal Province -- Extends from the northwest corner of México along the Pacific Slope (exclusive of Baja California) to the Río Grande de Santiago. The lower reaches of the drainages contain a large number of marine-derived species.

Central Mexican Province -- The southernmost province in the Nearctic Realm, extending from the Río Panuco to the Río Papaloapan on the Atlantic Slope and the Río Grande de Santiago to the Río Verde-Atoyac on the Pacific Slope. Contains a transitional mix of Nearctic, Neotropical, and marine-derived species, and many endemic species of goodeids (Goodeidae) and silversides (Atherinopsidae).

Each province can be further subdivided into smaller subprovinces defined by individual basins, systems, or drainages, or prevailing geographic features (e.g., the coastal islands of Cascadia, the Eastern Highlands of the Mississippi Province).

Pretty interesting stuff, at least to me.

Chris Scharpf
Baltimore

#11 Guest_edbihary_*

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:26 PM

Alright, I give!

Pretty interesting stuff, at least to me.

I'll give you that, too. Thanks for the write-up :lol:

#12 Guest_FirstChAoS_*

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 03:52 AM

Northern Appalachian Province -- Includes Atlantic coastal drainages south of the St. Lawrence River through the Delaware River. Its only endemic fish is the Acadian whitefish (Coregonus huntsmani).


This is a bit off topic but the northern appalacian province sounds like it includes new england. If that is the case then what about Savelinus agassizi the now extinct silver trout of dublin lake NH and the highly endangered sunapee trout savelinus aureolus.l Wouldn't these also be fish endemic to the region? (though i have seen some authors lumpo the sunapee with the arctic char, the silver with the brook trout, and sometimes even lumping the silver with the sunapee making taxonomy very confusing to research on these due to how conflicting the sources can get.)

#13 Guest_kalawatseti_*

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:07 AM

This is a bit off topic but the northern appalacian province sounds like it includes new england. If that is the case then what about Savelinus agassizi the now extinct silver trout of dublin lake NH and the highly endangered sunapee trout savelinus aureolus.l Wouldn't these also be fish endemic to the region? (though i have seen some authors lumpo the sunapee with the arctic char, the silver with the brook trout, and sometimes even lumping the silver with the sunapee making taxonomy very confusing to research on these due to how conflicting the sources can get.)


Sorry. When I said "only endemic fish," I meant "only endemic species of fish."

Salvelinus agassizi -- most authorities treat it as a subspecies of S. fontinalis.

Salvelinus aureolus -- is actually a junior synonym of S. oquassa, which most authorities treat as a subspecies of S. alpinus.

I have no opinion either way; I merely follow what appears to be the consensus among authorities, and/or the latest taxonomic research.

So, if agassizi and oquassa were formally elevated to full species (which is certainly the trend), they would join Coregonus huntsmani as the only endemic species in the northern Appalachian province.

Chris Scharpf

#14 Guest_Jtrotter77_*

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 10:37 AM

well maybe no truly native to the area I have caught Jack Dempseys, red devils,midas and even one really large Jaguar all in run off ditches in Vero beach FL. they are clearly breeding there as I have even caught babies in my cast net in there. Parents get to large for tank and then got released obviously. I have never caught them in the lakes around there though. Only the runoff ditches.

#15 Guest_Bob_*

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 02:33 PM

Nice description. Now, what's with the obscure forum name? Why not Anguilla? Or rostrata?

Not an arbitrary definition at all.

Most North Americans believe their continent encompasses Canada, México, the United States (including Hawaii), and the islands of the Greater Antilles (Bahamas, Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, etc.). They're right -- from a political perspective. Zoogeographers -- scientists who study the influence of geography on the distributions of animals -- have a different perspective. They divide the freshwater world into seven regions, or zoogeographic realms: Australian (Australia, New Zealand, New Guinea); Ethiopian (Africa and southern Arabia, also known as the Afrotropical Realm); Oriental (tropical Asia, also known as the Indomalaysian Realm); Palearctic (nontropical Asia and the northern tip of Africa); Neotropical (South and Central America and tropical México); Oceania (noncontinental islands, e.g., Guam, Fiji, Samoa); and the realm we’re concerned with, the Nearctic.

It's also the definition of North America used by most (if not all) ichthyologists, including the landmark books THE ZOOGEOGRAPHY OF NORTH AMERICAN FISHES and SYSTEMATICS, HISTORICAL ECOLOGY AND NORTH AMERICAN FISHES, and the upcoming NORTH AMERICAN FRESHWATER FISHES: EVOLUTION, ECOLOGY AND BEHAVIOR (http://bio.slu.edu/mayden/NAFF.html ).

Zoogeographic realms are divided into faunal provinces. The Nearctic (i.e., North American) Region consists of 15 such provinces, each draining different areas of land and having its own distinctive assemblage of animals. From north to south they are:

Arctic Archipelago Province -- It's not surprising that this largely frozen area, which comprises Greenland and the islands north of Canada's mainland, has the fewest number of freshwater fish species in the Nearctic Realm (eight).

Yukon/Mackenzie Province -- Includes all of mainland North America that drains into the Arctic Ocean east to the Melville Peninsula, up through Alaska to the Bering Sea, and to the Gulf of Alaska north of the Stikine River. May may be regarded as a transition zone between the Nearctic and Palearctic Realms since five species that occur here -- Arctic lamprey (Lampetra camtschatica), Arctic cisco (Coregonus autumnalis), least cisco (C. sardinella), inconnu (Stenodus leucichthys), Alaska blackfish (Dallia pectoralis) -- are also commonly found in Siberia.

Hudson Bay Province -- This huge area includes all drainages of Hudson and Ungava bays in northcentral U.S. and most of Canada.

Great Lakes/St. Lawrence Province -- Includes the seven Laurentian Great Lakes (Nipigon, Superior, Michigan, Huron, St. Clair, Erie, Ontario), the St. Lawrence River drainage, and the Atlantic drainages of Québec, Labrador and Newfoundland.

Cascadia Province -- West of the Continental Divide, Cascadia lies between the Columbia River to the south and the Stikine River to the north.

Northern Appalachian Province -- Includes Atlantic coastal drainages south of the St. Lawrence River through the Delaware River. Its only endemic fish is the Acadian whitefish (Coregonus huntsmani).

Mississippi Province -- Includes all of the U. S. and Canada drained by the Mississippi, Missouri and Ohio rivers, and a few headwater streams of some Atlantic Coastal and Mobile Basin tributaries collectively referred to as the Eastern Highlands.

Great Basin-Baja-Klamath-Sacramento Province -- This large area is sometimes divided into four smaller provinces, hence the long name. Includes over 200 endorheic (i.e., self-contained, with no drainage to the sea) basins of the Great Basin (the vast area of mountains and deserts between the western ridges of the Rocky Mountains and the eastern edge of the Sierra Nevada, and between the Columbia Colorado river basins); the Klamath and Rogue drainages on the California-Oregon border; the Sacramento-San Joaquin basin of California; and other coastal drainages and endorheic basins throughout Oregon, California and Baja California.

Central Appalachian Province -- Extends along the Atlantic Slope from the Susquehanna River drainage in upstate New York to the Edisto River drainage in South Carolina.

Colorado Province -- Includes the entire basin area historically drained by the once great but now emasculated Colorado River, flowing through some of the most arid terrain in North America.

Rio Grande Province -- Consists of the Rio Grande drainage from south-central Colorado through central México, plus several interior basins of north-central México that were formerly connected to the Rio Grande, and two independent streams of northwestern México (the ríos San Fernando and Soto la Marina) which share many fishes with the Rio Grande. Fauna includes the Rio Grande (or Texas) cichlid (Herichthys cyanoguttatus), the northernmost representative of the largely neotropical family Cichlidae, and the only cichlid native to the U.S.

Southeastern Province -- Extends from the Savannah River on the Atlantic Slope to the Lake Pontchartrain drainages of the Gulf Slope. Home to many extremely colorful minnows and darters, many of them endemic to the province.

Western Gulf Slope Province -- Includes all Gulf Coast drainages from the Calcasieu River in Louisiana to the Nueces River in Texas. Fauna includes to the Mexican tetra (Astyanax mexicanus), the northernmost representative of the largely neotropical family Characidae, and the only characin native to the U.S.

Sonoran-Sinaloan Coastal Province -- Extends from the northwest corner of México along the Pacific Slope (exclusive of Baja California) to the Río Grande de Santiago. The lower reaches of the drainages contain a large number of marine-derived species.

Central Mexican Province -- The southernmost province in the Nearctic Realm, extending from the Río Panuco to the Río Papaloapan on the Atlantic Slope and the Río Grande de Santiago to the Río Verde-Atoyac on the Pacific Slope. Contains a transitional mix of Nearctic, Neotropical, and marine-derived species, and many endemic species of goodeids (Goodeidae) and silversides (Atherinopsidae).

Each province can be further subdivided into smaller subprovinces defined by individual basins, systems, or drainages, or prevailing geographic features (e.g., the coastal islands of Cascadia, the Eastern Highlands of the Mississippi Province).

Pretty interesting stuff, at least to me.

Chris Scharpf
Baltimore






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