In some areas, dusky and highfin shiners are difficult to separate and there may be some hybridization occurring. Dustin is correct in his overall assessment of their distriubuton and habitat preferences, and there are populations that are obvious as to which species they are and then there are those like the ones in Big Mountain Creek. They appear to be dusky shiners. Wayne Starnes at the NC Musuem of Natural Sciences looked at many of both species and came up with the following characters. anterior extension of dark lateral stripe on gill area: confined to upper 60% of opercular bone with a horizontal ventral margin in highfin (I can almost make the case for this in the spm shown) versus it covering the majority of the opercular bone, often to subopercle joint and the verntal margins slope anteroventrally. basicuaudal spot relatiionsjip to lateral stripe: connection usually constricted, spot usually trapezoid to subtriangular in highfin versus usually more confluent, spot generally quadrate in dusky. pigment is absent to poorly developed around the anus in highgfin versus usually well developed lateral to anus in dusky. short snout (50-80% of eye diameter in highfin vs 85-100% in dusky. usually a dark internasal crescent developed in highfin and absent in dusky. usually the light stripe above the dark lateral stripe is continuous to the head in the highfin and usually obscured by dark pigment in the dusky. Note the frequent use of the word "usually". I will try and add some photos to show this. I know Drew demonstrated this at the convention but I wasn't attention

didn't add the highfin.

Thanks Fritz, I asked for it and we got it... In the pictures you attached I can see the differences, especially snout length and subtleties in pigmentation. Notropis spp. are always fun like this!

Dusky tends to have a reddish tail, more black along the anal fin base, and black lateral stripe pigment extends below the lateral line. Highfin has yellowish but not reddish tail, and the bottom edge of the black stripe stops at the lateral line. There's also something about the head/snout/eye i cant quite describe but they just look different after you've seen a bunch of each species. Ive never found both spp together, but there is some range overlap according to Menhinick's book.

EDIT: OOPS -- didnt see Fritz's post - much more comprehensive than mine - unti after i posted this one.

They look like the same fish, except for a minor difference in the pre-dorsal scale count. How do you tell 'em apart? With most shiners I go by the head and eye, but I'm stumped on this one.

Well,
I edited the above photo.
The lower fish hit many of the key features in my book so I went with it

That should teach you to trust me on an ID. Sorry guys.

That should teach you to trust me on an ID. Sorry guys.

You suck. etc., etc. 3 lashes with a wet noodle!

Notropis can be bizarrely difficult to separate by species, certainly if you're in the field. Everybody reading this has made ID mistakes with shiners, at least at first look. I wouldn't worry about it Dustin(!).

Notropis can be bizarrely difficult to separate by species, certainly if you're in the field. Everybody reading this has made ID mistakes with shiners, at least at first look. I wouldn't worry about it Dustin(!).

I don't believe Dustin was ID'ing by sight only location. He never saw this fish (photo) until I posted it. We sampled similar locations in the same creek but not the same locations.

Notropis can be bizarrely difficult to separate by species, certainly if you're in the field. Everybody reading this has made ID mistakes with shiners, at least at first look. I wouldn't worry about it Dustin(!).

Yup, that's what I love about NSM's (nondescript silvery minnows).