New Natives

Okay, I need to know, would this be okay:

75 gallon (48lx18wx20h)

2 rock bass
3 yellow perch
1 bluegill or crappie or pumpkinseed
1 grass or redfin pickerel

A 180 gallon would be perfect for me, but I won't be able to get one for a while (at least a year -- I would need to get a job and then save up). So is a 75 okay? And not just tentatively -- I would like to know if these fish can be kept happily in a 75 for a while, and how long.

I already have the bass and the perch. All are relatively small, much < half their maximum size. They're currently in my 233 gallon pond (about 5 feet long, 2.5 feet wide, and 2.25 feet deep). If they get too big for any tank they're in in the future, they can always be put in the pond, during the summer. What about during the winter? Is the pond deep enough for winterization? Also, they may not be able to be in there, due to a channel cat I have, so I hope the tank is big enough.

(Last resort: fish fry.)

I need to know definitively, which is better: bluegill, crappie, or pumpkinseed, or some other small Lepomis sunfish? Which is the least aggressive, which is the smallest that can't be eaten by the other fish, which is the easiest to find, which is the prettiest, which is the best eater, which is bullied the least, and which is the hardiest? Bare in mind that the only ones I am positive I can catch myself are the bluegill and crappie. Could I get others online, like in this forum?

And I need to know which pickerel is best: grass or redfin? Redfins are prettier, but they get bigger, correct? How easy is it to find one online? Is there anybody reading this who has one I can buy/trade for?

That's all my questions, for now. For more info., check out my original thread, titled "Perch feeding and more" in this section of the forum. I hope my emphasizing doesn't annoy anyone, I'm just antsy for definitive answers. If it comes down to opinion, then let me know it's just your opinion. Thank you.

OK, I will take a stab at it:

What? No bullheads?

I would leave the pickeral out of your mix. (I know, they are so cool!) I think it would get beat up and out-competed by the others (especially by the rock bass). The quantity and mix otherwise would be OK for a 75, although it will get cramped once you get a 2 or 3 year's growth on them.

I think from your description of the pond, that you MIGHT be able to over-winter some fish. Did any of the koi ever make it through to the Spring? Why not leave in something as an experiment (minnows and/or a few small sunfish)? Take some notes through the winter to have a record. A hard, cold winter will freeze deeper (obviously). Heavy snow will actually insulate. So, if we have a mild winter, or lots of snow, and the fish survive, you cannot be sure that they will be OK next year. If we have a harsh, dry winter, then you will know, one way or the other.

Which is better? Well, it depends. Pumpkinseeds are pretty, but they are aggressive (probably more with their own kind than others). Bluegills are middle of the road, not aggressive, but able to take care of themselves. Crappies are meek. Other sunfish that you might catch locally: longears are somewhat like bluegills, green sunfish have lots of personality (and agressiveness), and orangespots which are smaller and mild-mannered. Size-wise, biggest to smallest: crappies, bluegills, p-seeds, greens, longears, o-spots. There definitely are online sources in this forum for these (and other sunfish, too).

I think that grass and redfin pickeral are similar in size. Grass are native to WI, redfins are more eastern. I think we have hashed through the legal issues in the past. If you buy from a vendor, save the paperwork.

OK, I will take a stab at it:

What? No bullheads?

I would leave the pickeral out of your mix. (I know, they are so cool!) I think it would get beat up and out-competed by the others (especially by the rock bass). The quantity and mix otherwise would be OK for a 75, although it will get cramped once you get a 2 or 3 year's growth on them.

I think from your description of the pond, that you MIGHT be able to over-winter some fish. Did any of the koi ever make it through to the Spring? Why not leave in something as an experiment (minnows and/or a few small sunfish)? Take some notes through the winter to have a record. A hard, cold winter will freeze deeper (obviously). Heavy snow will actually insulate. So, if we have a mild winter, or lots of snow, and the fish survive, you cannot be sure that they will be OK next year. If we have a harsh, dry winter, then you will know, one way or the other.

Which is better? Well, it depends. Pumpkinseeds are pretty, but they are aggressive (probably more with their own kind than others). Bluegills are middle of the road, not aggressive, but able to take care of themselves. Crappies are meek. Other sunfish that you might catch locally: longears are somewhat like bluegills, green sunfish have lots of personality (and agressiveness), and orangespots which are smaller and mild-mannered. Size-wise, biggest to smallest: crappies, bluegills, p-seeds, greens, longears, o-spots. There definitely are online sources in this forum for these (and other sunfish, too).

I think that grass and redfin pickeral are similar in size. Grass are native to WI, redfins are more eastern. I think we have hashed through the legal issues in the past. If you buy from a vendor, save the paperwork.

First off, thanks for replying!

Bullheads: I forgot! Bullhead, I will almost definitely have some in my 75. I've had over 50 before -- all babies except for two large ones. I wish I knew where the pond I got the babies from was, as I remember there were thousands of 1 inch bullheads just swimming around on the edge. All of the babies were eaten by my blue catfish. By the time I realized he was eating them (I thought they were still hiding in their castle), they were all gone and he had grown about a foot. Needless to say, I got rid of him. And now I have an albino channel cat, because I just cannot resist those beautiful catfish. Bullheads are less pretty to me, but I'll definitely get some soon. I know where I can catch adults, and they are easier to care for than channels and blues.

I will think more about the pickerel before I make a decision. They are indeed cool. I have heard lots of people say I shouldn't get one, and I want to be a responsible owner. But I know many here have had them and they lived very happily, and I don't want to have other people's mistakes overshadow my own experiences of the future. I want to make the mistakes myself. There is a line, though, that I don't want to cross, where morally you should not take on something that you have no right to. I do not want to endanger a life, no matter how less comprehending it is than I. Whatever I decide to do, I will do it to the best of my ability. Any more opinions about the pickerel will be appreciated too (and no I'm not waiting for someone to say it's okay to get one so that I can subconsciously blame them).

I never risked keeping koi in the pond over the winter, since I never had to. Before our 55 became a cichlid tank, the koi stayed in there; after that, they stayed in our small indoor pond (probably less than 100 gallons). Now that I think about it, I could use that pond for the pickerel (after I see if he's getting along with the sunfish in the 75?) and maybe channel cat, since it is pretty wide (but not very deep at all). I would be a little worried about two things -- the shallowness of it, and the possibility of the pickerel jumping out. Maybe this is just an irrational fear, since I'm not really worried about him jumping out of the other pond. Should I be? Either way, I would rather keep the pickerel and any other fish in the 75 or the outdoor pond. The indoor one is getting old, it's only a foot deep, and it's just not as nice having to look down on the pickerel from above. It may be fine for koi, but for a pike I wanna see that thing! One thing I think I have going for me, with the outdoor pond, is that the sides are not gradual. They are vertical; straight down. It's like a box, or a big casket, tomb, or mausoleum. It looks like one too -- all white marble. I hate it. I'd much rather have a natural pond than an ornamental one. But anyways, is that an advantage, that it's not shallow in any places? It's two feet down all around. Also, I've heard of using heaters or currents to break the ice and do other things. How does this come into play here?

I wish I knew how to get some of those other sunfish (and the pickerel, and other things), but I am pretty sure they aren't in my lake (Lake Geneva) and I don't know where to go to find them around here (Wisconsin, particularly Milwaukee). Could someone from around here give me advice? I have seen some information about fishing and collecting trips on this site, but there's a lot of different information and I don't know what to focus on. I've got Lake Michigan, Washington Park, and the Menomonee River around me, if anybody knows all the places I'm talking about. Other than that, I'm not that acquainted with my water ways.

I also have occasional access to Lake Winnebago in Oshkosh, and in august I'm going on a trip down through the Appalachians and surrounding eastern states, including Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. It is just conceivable, I think, that I could catch some things during the trip and keep them alive all the way through. We will be traveling by car and staying in cheap motels. Besides complications and technicalities like legality and such, the only major problem I can think of is the heat of the car. Is it at all practical that I would be able to keep them in the car overnight and through the entire drive? Aeration isn't the problem -- I can keep them aerated... It's the heat. Right? Could I keep some small sunfish and other things alive in a 10 gallon or two for anywhere between a few days and a few weeks?

Ignoring all that and focusing on what I know I can get, bluegills seem to be the best choice for my situation. So 1 bluegill with 3 perch, 2 rock bass, 1 bullhead, and maybe 1 pickerel? Ignoring the possible problems with the pickerel for now, does this sound okay for a 75?

If I can keep those fish in the 75 for 2 years or more, I should be okay. By that time I will be able to get a 180, I bet. I might be in college, and I'll definitely have a nice job. Overall my situation will be better for supporting my hobby -- at least I think so, this is by far my most expensive hobby. Juggling, writing, cooking, and filmmaking don't cost much money, but fishkeeping sure does.

Thanks for reading.

(PS: Sorry I always make my posts so long. If anybody gave up reading this because it's too long, I apologize. I can't help it. I always see people being too ambiguous and not giving out enough information for everyone to help him, so I always add way too much.)

EDIT: Bullhead, now that I've seen your location, maybe you can help me as far as collecting around here. Is Woodworth near Kenosha? Google maps makes me think it is. (If you've already answered this to me previously, sorry, I'm bad remembering people and their details.) By the way, I'm also using Google Maps to plan our trip. I think you guys might be interested to see our tentative route, since it might help with ideas for my collecting. Also, I plan to see some of our nation's aquariums on the way, so you might be interested to see which ones I'm going to and give me advice and reviews.

Here is the thread I made concerning my upcoming fish-collecting and aquarium-seeing trip:

"Epic Fish Trip"

It's in the General Discussion section.

The above post still applies. Read that first.

Could you keep the bluegills and rockbass in the indoor pond during the winter and the grass pickerel and perch in the 75?

I think that you could keep some perch, a crappie, some rock bass, and a pickerel, as long as the perch are too big to get eaten and there are a lot of plants and caves in the tank. I have kept a lot of rock bass and none of mine have been aggressive as long as the fish don't go near their cave. The pickerel would like all the plants too.
The only problem is that the bullhead will tear up any plant that it comes across (mine does that).
Grass pickerel are a type of redfin pickerel. Redfin, Esox americanus. Grass, Esox americanus vermiculatus. Redfins can get a little over a foot, 16" max, while grass pickerels get around 10" long.

Could you keep the bluegills and rockbass in the indoor pond during the winter and the grass pickerel and perch in the 75?

I could, although I'd prefer to have all the fish in aquariums (better viewing). But this is definitely a possibility.

I think that you could keep some perch, a crappie, some rock bass, and a pickerel, as long as the perch are too big to get eaten and there are a lot of plants and caves in the tank. I have kept a lot of rock bass and none of mine have been aggressive as long as the fish don't go near their cave. The pickerel would like all the plants too.
The only problem is that the bullhead will tear up any plant that it comes across (mine does that).
Grass pickerel are a type of redfin pickerel. Redfin, Esox americanus. Grass, Esox americanus vermiculatus. Redfins can get a little over a foot, 16" max, while grass pickerels get around 10" long.

I think what I might end up doing is putting the perch and rock bass and channel cat in a 55 soon, maybe with a bluegill or crappie, and keep the grass pickerel (which I should be receiving soon from smbass) in the pond until I have to close it down for the season (can anybody tell me what a good estimate is for the general time I'll have to close down the pond for the winter? I can't remember). At that time I'll put the grass pickerel in the indoor pond, and once the channel cat is too big for the 55 and its occupants I'll put him in there too. And finally, by Christmas I should have a 75, and once I have that set up I can put the perch, rock bass, 1 bluegill/crappie/small sunfish, and pickerel in there, and leave the channel cat in the indoor pond (possibly with koi or goldfish, or pickerel if it doesn't work out in the 75), and convert the 55 to an african cichlid tank. Does all this sound good?

PS: I am back from my epic fish trip and will be reporting on it soon!

I've been pretty busy due to the first week of school and I'm waiting to report on my trip until I have a video edited, and since our camera broke towards the end of our trip, it's gonna be a short while (we gave it to Best Buy a couple of weeks ago).

Anyways, I have a question about one of my small perch, the one who has the lighter markings. He seems to be swimming weirdly. The best way I can describe it so far is that the last fourth of his body, from the end of the dorsal fin on, is extremely flexible, to the point that it looks, I don't know, broken. I don't know if this is normal or not. It just seems that when he swims he uses the end of his body very weirdly. It sort of hangs off to the side at times. I should probably get a better description. It just didn't look right. It didn't look like normal swimming. Maybe somebody knows what I'm talking about?

He seems to be swimming weirdly. The best way I can describe it so far is that the last fourth of his body, from the end of the dorsal fin on, is extremely flexible, to the point that it looks, I don't know, broken.

He is going to die, that's a sure sign. Nerve damage.

OK, I agree that it does not sound good, but I have seen captive, or even wild, fish survive with maladies. There are now 2 questions: 1) Is the perch suffering? If so euthanasia might be the best course. And, 2) What is the root cause? Injury (most likely), congenital, disease, or nutrition? If disease or nutrition, corrective action might be needed. The fish probably needs to be isolated for his protection (from his tank mates who will harrass the weak) and for the tank mates protection (in case of disease).

Haha, don't believe everthing you read. I'm in an unusually compassionate mood tonight, so the fish God will grant LIFE to your perch! May you enjoy him for many years.

Okay, thanks for the information guys. I'll check it out and get back to you.

For one thing, he is eating.

Well I finally got a chance to observe the injured fish this afternoon (was at my dad's house since Friday). The perch swims with an s-bend in his back. I cannot tell if he is in pain. He moves around when disturbed (fed them worms) but today he did not eat. If I had to guess I would say he probably tries to limit his movement. He seems pretty bad, and I am prepared to euthanize him if that is the most reasonable option. How do you go about doing that? I have heard conflicting things, and obviously this matter is of great importance to me and the perch.

I am also prepared to quarantine him. I'm planning to set up a few tanks this week, as the season is nearing an end. I don't think I'm going to risk leaving any fish in the pond over the winter. I've never done that before, and I don't want to try it with fish I value this much. Also, the pickerel should be arriving in the mail this coming week, so I'm going to need a good place to put him. I might as well start setting up my "fish room" this week. I am having second thoughts about putting the pickerel in the pond at all, because something in the pond could have done this to my perch. Was it the rock bass? The channel cat? The other perch? The plecostomus? The now-deceased crayfish? I would guess the rock bass. They are beastly, and the sooner they're in their own tank the better, as far as I'm concerned. I was already warned by you guys that sunfish don't mix well with pickerel, so this is the nail in the coffin, the dagger in the heart. I won't put him with them.

How would a fish do this to another fish?

If I put the pickerel, channel cat, and injured perch in my mini indoor pond (I said before I thought it was around 100 gallons but now I think that's probably too high, it's more likely around 50 at the most) -- will that work out? Or should I put the perch in his own tank? How likely is it that the injury was caused by a disease? And should I keep the channel cat away from the perch? From the pickerel?

I figured that that combination might work out well, one of the reasons being that all three of those fish eat somewhat differently (pickerels eat feeders, perch eat mostly shrimp (under my care the perch don't eat the feeders nearly as much as the rock bass -- and they like the shrimp much more), channel cats scavenge mostly at night. It might make for a more peaceful environment. Am I wrong?

How likely is it that this is nutritional? It is quite possible, I will admit, that he has not been getting enough food. But would that lead to this? I feed them worms, frozen shrimp, and feeders. I probably don't feed them enough, I guess, although various people have told me fish can go 2 weeks without food (I do, of course, know not to use this as a standard, though, since they should only go with that little food occasionally, like on vacations).

I have mentioned before that the perch always appear sluggish. I figured this was normal, but maybe that was a stupid assumption. They would probably be more active without the rock bass.

Either way, I'm planning to open up the indoor pond, a 55 gallon, and maybe a 10 or two, so let me know what you guys think.

OK, how old (large) is this perch? How long after you acquired him did you notice this problem? (Sorry if you answered this already, but there are a lot of posts to go back through.)