How important is carbon?

Hey Guys,
How important do you think it is to introduce carbon regularly into a tank. I have a 180 tank with some Val that is growing great, some hygro that was doing well but seems to be dying, some micrograss that is so-so, and some new amazon swords that seem fine. My lighting is pretty good (I think), the plants have at least 4 strips of halogen lights on them, 30W each, 5500K. I sometimes add Kent Freshwater plant, previously I had a thread algae problem but that has gone away.

Anyway, I thought about buying a carbon injector but it seemed expensive and it seemed like it might be bad for the fish if I screwed it up. I pretty much never see my plants give off O2 bubbles, although the algae when I had that did. My plants look okay but not that brilliant green that you see in some plant books (like that guy Amano's).

So any thoughts or suggestions about adding carbon in anyway? The plants are supposed to be background for my fish, I care about them but it is the fish that I am really interested in, so I don't want anything to happen to them. Also in case anybody is picky I know some of my plants aren't native, I don't care about that I am just going for something that looks good and natural with my fish.

Tim,

Forget carbon injection. It can make plants grow faster, but not healthier. And it's a lot of work to set up and maintain. Also makes for much more plant maintenance work (cutting back, etc).

I've never used halogen strips. Do you know how many lumens they put out? Watts only tell how much power they draw. Do you have any indication as to what their spectrum looks like? Some bulbs have the info on the side, some don't.

If you could, describe what is going on with your hygro - color change (in what manner - be specific, it matters)? fewer leaves? Is there any new growth? Also, if you could describe your micrograss. If you have a digital camera, pictures could help. Basically, there are a lot of possible things that could be going on; the best way to start is a full understanding of the symptoms. Also - how old are these plants? Your new Amazon swords will change appearance after a few weeks. This is because most aquarium plants can be grown either above or below the water surface. Since they grow faster above, that's how the growers grow them. But the leaves have different physiologies depending on whether they grew above or below water, and most species are different shaped leaves, too. Your swords above water leaves will die and be replaced by underwater leaves, which will look longer and thinner/wavier.

Can you describe your setup more? What kind of substrate do you have, and how old is it? Are there fish in the tank? What/how much are they fed? Also, what's in the Kent Freshwater Plant stuff? They have a couple different formulas; it would be good to know which you have.

As far as color, you probably won't be able to get "Amano Green", because you won't want to spend the time/money on it that he does. However, you can get very attractive results by changing bulbs. I don't know about halogen bulb types, but what I usually do is use two cool white and two warm white fluorescents. You can also use the new daylight bulbs, but I would still throw in a warm white (or kitchen/bath tube). The reds/greens in the warm bulbs will help bring out a lot of color. Don't use them alone, though, because they don't give off enough light in the blue spectrum. You may find yourself monkeying around with the bulb combo or ratio to find what pleases you best as far as both plant color and fish color. Just don't use "plant/aquarium" bulbs - they are a waste of money in my opinion.

Sorry I can't give more answers (other than nixing the O2) yet. But if you help fill in more of the storyline, I can probably help out more.

Tim,

Forget carbon injection. It can make plants grow faster, but not healthier. And it's a lot of work to set up and maintain. Also makes for much more plant maintenance work (cutting back, etc).

I've never used halogen strips. Do you know how many lumens they put out? Watts only tell how much power they draw. Do you have any indication as to what their spectrum looks like? Some bulbs have the info on the side, some don't. .

I am an idiot, I wrote halogen bulbs but I have flourescent bulbs, 5500K natural daylight I believe is how they are described. Sorry about that.

If you could, describe what is going on with your hygro - color change (in what manner - be specific, it matters)? fewer leaves? Is there any new growth? Also, if you could describe your micrograss. If you have a digital camera, pictures could help. Basically, there are a lot of possible things that could be going on; the best way to start is a full understanding of the symptoms. Also - how old are these plants? Your new Amazon swords will change appearance after a few weeks. This is because most aquarium plants can be grown either above or below the water surface. Since they grow faster above, that's how the growers grow them. But the leaves have different physiologies depending on whether they grew above or below water, and most species are different shaped leaves, too. Your swords above water leaves will die and be replaced by underwater leaves, which will look longer and thinner/wavier.

Can you describe your setup more? What kind of substrate do you have, and how old is it? Are there fish in the tank? What/how much are they fed? Also, what's in the Kent Freshwater Plant stuff? They have a couple different formulas; it would be good to know which you have.
.

For substrate I have 3 levels, about 1 inch of play sand on the bottom, about 2 inches of flourite (only about an inch where the grass is) and then I have about 1 inch of either larger gravel (from Lowe's) or playsand again, where the plants are it is mainly gravel except for the grass which is sand.

My tank is about 3 months old. My hygro started out well, grow quickly, I trimmed it a few times, replanted some, but this last time I trimmed it it hasn't grown back much and it looks weak. The leaves are green/brown, smaller than normal, they point down instead of up and some are curled. I think maybe I trimmed them too much but I didn't think that was an issue. The grass is doing okay, it has put out a few sprouts, I bought a 12" chunk of it like sod, but the tops of some the leaves are brownish/rotting, this is maybe on 10-20% of them. It looks good but not as good as it did. My Val, some store bought and others found, is growing like crazy and putting out a lot of runners which is good for me. I also have an Anubia that is starting to die and some unknown plant that is growing well.

Initially I started out with 2 flourescent strips over these plants as described above, the grass didn't do well but everything else seemed good. Then I added 2 more strips by buying another light strip and the grass is doing better but the other plants aren't, whcih makes think I have too much light and not enough fertilizer/nutrients.

As far as color, you probably won't be able to get "Amano Green", because you won't want to spend the time/money on it that he does. However, you can get very attractive results by changing bulbs. I don't know about halogen bulb types, but what I usually do is use two cool white and two warm white fluorescents. You can also use the new daylight bulbs, but I would still throw in a warm white (or kitchen/bath tube). The reds/greens in the warm bulbs will help bring out a lot of color. Don't use them alone, though, because they don't give off enough light in the blue spectrum. You may find yourself monkeying around with the bulb combo or ratio to find what pleases you best as far as both plant color and fish color. Just don't use "plant/aquarium" bulbs - they are a waste of money in my opinion.

Sorry I can't give more answers (other than nixing the O2) yet. But if you help fill in more of the storyline, I can probably help out more.

Thanks for the help. The fertilizer is Kent Freshwater Plant which I think is mainly potassium and iron. I recently purchased some Flourish Excel online but it hasn't arrived yet. I have about 10 fish in the 180, ranging from 2-8" and they eat 3-4 x week. I do have a camera and tried to post pictures here before, but I think I screwed it up. Do I just put them in the attachment box?

Appreciate you taking the time to assist me. Tim

Okey dokey, I think this won't be too hard to fix... I'll try to organize into topics.

Lights: sounds like you are OK. To make the color more pleasing, try putting in a "kitchen/bath" bulb. It will warm up the colors.

Substrate: will probably be OK, a lot of people use fluorite and swear by it. I myself prefer to have a layer of good 'ol soil at the bottom of the tank, covered by gravel and/or sand. In addition to having nutrients in it at the get-go, soil has a much finer particle size, which makes for better root contact and nutrient absorption. I like to use the potting soil from the garden section. Nothing fancy. With fluorite, you will likely find yourself supplementing with nutrients often. Fluorite is one of the more nutrient-holding materials available commercially (compared to, say, plain gravel), but isn't as good as soil for transferring nutrients into the plants. If you wanted to try using some soil in your current setup, try freezing some mud in ice cube trays. You can then push them under the gravel while they are frozen. Not entirely mess-free, but works OK.

Plants:
Hygro: I think you have a calcium deficiency. Do you know what the GH of your water is? Try pushing half a calcium pill into the hygro roots. If calcium is the problem, you will see some improved growth in oh, say, 4-5 days. The Flourish Excel that you are getting does have calcium in it, but be VERY careful using it. It has nitrogen and phosphorus. Can lead to a nasty algae infestation. I'd try the calcium pill first. If this doesn't work and you do want to try a fertilizer, I would avoid the liquids and use a solid one that you can push under the gravel. For example, Miracle-Gro makes little fertilizer sticks for potted plants. Cut some into 1/8 to 1/4 inch size chunks, and push ALL the way to the bottom of the tank. The idea is to try to keep the fertilizer near the roots and away from the general water column.

Grass: My guess is that it is an an Eleocharis, probably E. acicularis. It's really a sedge, and the "leaves" are stems. Little brown flower heads are grown at the top of the stems. I think this is what you are seeing. These only grow when the plant is emmersed (above water). They will eventually fall off and the new stems won't have them. It is a high light plant, though. I do find that successfully keeping this plant can be a delicate balance between having enough light and nutrients and having an algae breakout. Here's a picture and some line drawings of it: http://plants.usda.g...ile?symbol=ELAC

Anubias: Did you bury the rhizome? If so, you need to unbury it. This plant is often grown attached to wood or rocks. To start, tie it on using some fishing line. The little roots can go into the soil, but try to keep the rhizome above it. Anubias is usually best grown in lower light conditions, because it grows really slowly, and algae accumulates on it's leaves. You may find yourself deciding which you like better - the Anubias or the Eleocharis, and lighting accordingly. If you have another tank, you might just want to move the Anubias now.

Vals are great, aren't they? So nice and wavy. I'm glad yours are doing well.

I hope this helps some. I'd like to know how it works out! (especially if I'm wrong!)

Native Planter,
Thanks for your replies, I hadn't thought about a calcium deficiency. I don't do a bunch of water tests but I know our tap water is quite hard, 8+ pH.
Regarding my substrate if I had it to do over again I probably would have used more flourite and some soil but this was kind of a learn by doing process, I have never kept live plants before.
For the grass, the grass I have is Lilaeopsis brasiliensis, often called microsword grass. I bought a few small patches that didn't do well but I liked the look of it and bought 1 square foot of it, my fish love it and I like how it looks, but it could be greener. I know it has high light requirements which is why I bought the extra set of lights.
Thanks again,
Tim

Hi Tim,

It's possible to have a calcium deficiency even when the pH is high. If you put a couple bits of tablets in there, it won't hurt anything if it isn't the problem.

I would guess that the Lilaeopsis was grown emersed before it went to the store, and that some of the emersed-type leaves are starting to die. I usually experience this before 3 months, but sometimes some species can last that long. If this is the case, I would think it should rectify itself in a month, when all the old leaves have falled away and been replaced by new ones.

If the Lilaeopsis really seems yellow to you, try pushing a fertilizer nibblet under the roots. I've had to do this sometimes and had very good results. I have read that this plant does not like coarse substrate. I don't know how fine your laterite is. I understand the "trial by fire" planted tank method very well! I think that you did nothing wrong, per say; a lot of people use laterite, with very good results. I really haven't because it's a tad too expensive for my tastes, and I get good growth with soil.

If you feel like experimenting (I myself can't seem to stop experimenting), you might want to grab a snippit of the lilaeopsis and plant it in a tiny pot in soil. cover the soil with sand, then put it back in the tank. It would be interesting to see if it grows differently from the ones in the general substrate.

If you get the chance, I'd love to see a picture of your tank. It sounds like it looks really nice!

Stupid question but how do I link a picture, just put it in the attachment box? I tried that once but it didn't seem to work, does it appear right away?

Thanks for the help,
Tim

Stupid question but how do I link a picture, just put it in the attachment box? I tried that once but it didn't seem to work, does it appear right away?

Thanks for the help,
Tim

Click Browse, find your picture and just double-click.
Then click "Add attachment" below.
Then submit the post.

Here's the shots of Tim's plants:

Here's the shots of Tim's plants: