I decided to clip out the activities report from an Illinois DNR publication and post it. Lots of guys getting big fines and even some jail time for taking fish illegally. Just in case you think officers are not interested in seeing what guys with nets are up to, think again and please keep it legal.

I think it's safe to assume that none of those dirtballs has ever done a thing wrong in their lives. Just ask them.....

I think it's safe to assume that none of those dirtballs has ever done a thing wrong in their lives. Just ask them.....

hehehe I know Bruce.

I want to let people know that I'm not trying to compare our membership with guys taking sportfish with nets to then later fry them up; but conservation officers can't always immediately distinguish enthusiasts from dirtballs. Our activities often arouse suspicion and it's best to always be on the good side of the law.

I have to honest here. I sample sportfish all the time with nets. I even hold them for photographs. I most certainly return them unharmed to the water they came from once photographed but highly suspicious at best.

hehehe I know Bruce.

I want to let people know that I'm not trying to compare our membership with guys taking sportfish with nets to then later fry them up; but conservation officers can't always immediately distinguish enthusiasts from dirtballs. Our activities often arouse suspicion and it's best to always be on the good side of the law.

I have to honest here. I sample sportfish all the time with nets. I even hold them for photographs. I most certainly return them unharmed to the water they came from once photographed but highly suspicious at best.

Always carry your license/permits and be nothing but courteous to the officers.

I have never been bothered while carrying my license, the 1 time I accidentally left it in my car, I was given a ride back to my car and a friendly warning(after actually having it) to carry it with me. The officer then was interested in what I was doing and drove me back to where he found me.

Tom

I have to honest here. I sample sportfish all the time with nets. I even hold them for photographs. I most certainly return them unharmed to the water they came from once photographed but highly suspicious at best.

Boy, we learned this in a frustrating way recently. And for a bit there, it felt like we were going to join the ranks of some of the more famous ichthyological overnight guests of the Whitley City Jail (Dave Etiner et al).

My current feeling on the matter is that unless you have a permit specifically stating your name AND the names of the people who are assisting you with ANY of the equipment, and the species that you plan to photograph ARE specifically named, it is NOT worth it to take a picture of a sport fish taken with a net anywhere other than in your hand, to be released asap.

As soon as you put them in a bucket, a tank, or say, a live pen constructed out of rocks... You have "taken" that animal and bear whatever reprocussions might come.

This is for anyone, from Joe Schmoe to, say, newly retired TVA Biologists who have just completed full icthyofaunal surveys for the state in the very water in which you're standing. If you get a cowboy of a wildlife officer, and he don't know you... You've got some 'splainin' to do.

Everyone knows what a walleye and a smallmouth bass looks like, so on an educational level, it's not worth it. And I don't want to discourage people from getting pictures of the smaller sunfish species, as people aren't AS aware of them... But be warned you may get a ticket, and it may not be cheap. If you feel led to do this, you should have all your stuff ready and right there, you'll have a better story that way. And I know that "dream fish" doesn't always show up when it's convenient, but a ticket is pretty danged inconvenient in and of itself.

Todd

Boy, that sure does sound like a fine story... glad it wound up getting resolved OK.

You guys did have your BSF permits, right?

cheers,
Dave

As soon as you put them in a bucket, a tank, or say, a live pen constructed out of rocks... You have "taken" that animal and bear whatever repercussions might come.

Todd,
Just for the heck of it I decided to look up the definition of "take" as it pertains to wildlife in my home state. I hoped I might be within the law taking photos and then immediately returning fish but it seems otherwise. In fact, on the surface it seems netting them in the first place is against the law!


(515 ILCS 5/1‑100) (from Ch. 56, par. 1‑100)
Sec. 1‑100. Take. "Take" means lure, kill, destroy, capture, gig or spear, trap or ensnare, or attempt to do so.
(Source: P.A. 87‑833.)

Hey Dave, good to see you back in civilization!

Not near as good as the story of the "Sagitta, Squirrel -n- Shine". But we'll all have to wait a spell for that one when I get a few hours to put together a web ditty.

Um, yeah, we had one... The question arose in the field whether the rest of us were covered on it, since the soon-to-be-retired TVA biologist was listed as a subpermittee on the permit. Lazy beauracracy making for an uncomfortable time streamside. And it really just was dependent on who the officer was. If it'd been this guy, I think he woulda just spent the day fishin' with us.



The other guy was the one who just couldn't let it go. Needless to say, we didn't take his picture

Yeah, Uland. It is illegal to do anything, unless you have a piece of paper saying you can do "X things". The starting point is usually a fishing liscence, where it's defined what activities that covers. From there, you move on to permits and different degrees of permitting.

Todd

But this made it all worth it...

http://www.farmertod...loodfin_bsf.wmv (6.4 mb)

Right click, save as!

I'd turn the sound off, I wish I could do that for you. And... If you smash the screen down to a 300 pixel window, it'll look all high def and stuff

Todd

I just picked up that publication at a sporting goods store in Illinois, ... wow on that Cayman. They've gotten two in the past few years at Lake St. Mary's in northwestern Ohio. Not sure if they were Cayman though.

Todd: Brian and I visited a spot on the Kokosing were you've got to bring this camera equipment you've got. Crystal clear, swift water, big boulders. Great for snorkeling and photographing GIANT Spotted Darters.

Todd: Brian and I visited a spot on the Kokosing were you've got to bring this camera equipment you've got. Crystal clear, swift water, big boulders. Great for snorkeling and photographing GIANT Spotted Darters.

Was just out there last Tuesday. Unfortunately, there was a pretty heavy rain pulse coming in... We literally watched the water go up, and it was dangerous when we got there. So we didn't get to explore it as well as we would have liked. Still picked up all 3 Nothos.

Messed around a bit in Waktomika Creek too. Got silver redhorse in one of the upstream sections. With its proximity to the Muskie, it's got to be awesome. Going to have to check that out some more.

I'm gearing my PhD work so I get to visit these places... Often.

Todd

Something to consider is the number of posts on these forums of the "How do I feed pellets to my largemouth bass" variety.
I'd venture to say that most of the juvie gamefish being kept by hobbyists are doubly illegal based on length limits and gear restrictions. I don't know how often LE peruses these forums but if they do, they may develop a negative opinion of native fish keepers that might work against us down the road.
On the other hand, I think we fall through the cracks in the LE radar screen in some ways. This allows us to practice our hobby with little attention from F&G. Unfortunately current laws, at least in Massachusetts, if rigidly enforced would pretty much shut us down. As I interpret the laws, gamefish can only be legally taken by hook and line, usually with length and possesion limits as well. That pretty much leaves us only with the very short list of "bait species" which we may take with nets and transport. Needless to say, the bait list does not include many of the most desirable aquarium species. Right now, many of us are technically outlaws. All though it is highly unlikely the game warden is gonna knock on my door and confiscate my tesselated darters tomorrow, if native fish keepers DO get on the LE radar screen, things could get complicated for us non-academic hobbyists.
This currently seems to be the case for hobbyist keepers of native herps. LE in many states pretty much sees them all as poachers and increasingly restrictive laws are being passed and even elaborate sting operations are targeting hobbyists who collect from the wild.
Food for thought.

Messed around a bit in Waktomika Creek too. Got silver redhorse in one of the upstream sections. With its proximity to the Muskie, it's got to be awesome. Going to have to check that out some more.

I'm gearing my PhD work so I get to visit these places... Often.

Todd

We've still got to talk about this...

Mikez,

Each state is different and this is the most important part of my following rant.

Most states do not restrict possession of fishes native to their state. Most states do not make laws about possession of under-size sport fish (most hatcheries could not exist if this were the case). They do make laws about how you take what fish in any given water body or jurisdiction. States also have a list of fishes that are illegal to posses which usually consist of invasive tropicals but many western states ban possession of fishes native to eastern parts of the US. You then must consider private waters as well as the ease and low cost of shipping fish these days. I honestly doubt that many here are outlaws and would encourage you to post a topic about your state regulations in the Trading dock if you're looking for fish to be sent to you. If your state is that restrictive, I'm sure members here will be glad to help (me included).

Mikez,
I honestly doubt that many here are outlaws and would encourage you to post a topic about your state regulations in the Trading dock if you're looking for fish to be sent to you. If your state is that restrictive, I'm sure members here will be glad to help (me included).

I think you may have misunderstood either the intent ot content of my post. I do not want to appear argumentitive, but feel I should clarify.

First, as to being outlaws, most, if not all states have laws which regulate the taking of gamefish. For example, in Ma a largemouth bass must be at least 12 inches to be POSSESED and it can only be taken by hook and line. If a bass under 12 inches is possesed, whether in a bag, bucket, or home aquaria it is illegal. I'm sure this is the case in most states. This was obviously the case in the news reports at the top of this thread. If the bass were taken by a means other than hook and line, that would also be illegal [also reflected in the news reports above]. My point then is by the letter of the law, it would be illegal to keep a bass under 12 inches as well as illegal to collect it with dip net or seine. I know from scanning these forums that there are some who do just that. They are breaking the letter of the law, if only gently bending the spirit of the law.

I really must have failed drastically in my communication skills if you interpreted my post to mean I was "looking for fish to be sent" to me!
I was refering to the legality of collecting nongame, non-bait designated species within the state. To me the whole point of being a native fish hobbyist is to get out in the wild and collect native fish myself. The letter of the law states I may only use my minnow trap, dip nets and seines for those species designated as "bait".
Sure, I suppose it would be legal for you to send me some tank raised tesselated darters. To me, that would be like going to the fish market to get my trout or striped bass. Nothing wrong with that, I just thought we were discussing the actual collection of native fish from the wild.

Having said that, I have nothing against having you send me some fish!
I could use some black sailfin mollies to add to my molly tank and maybe some colorful darters that could get along with my tesselateds.
Even still, I'd rather be able to go out and collect some local natives to trade for them.
Best of all would be to visit and have you show me a spot where I could [legally] collect them myself.

I hope I didn't come off as being a trouble maker or malcontent or that I was whinning about the evil game warden. If so it was a failure on my part to communicate effectively. If my language or manner were not in line with forum policy, attribute it to my being new here. I didn't think I was being controversial, just verbalizing what anyone can see for themselves if they scan the forums.

Mike,

I think I read you loud and clear but I often speak to the person posting as well as the readers. The thought that all/most natives are illegal is brought up continuously elsewhere (sort of like a broken record). I don't think most states ban possession of certain size bass but all that I know of require they be taken on hook and line. Some states allow transportation of fishes and the state of capture laws then are carried with that fish. In other words, if I take a fish from state A that allows the capture of any size bass and transport to state B that recognizes the transport and laws of state A. Basically state A has a clause to allow for state B fish laws. The law can read something like "any fish legally obtained from another state and transported to this state shall be considered a legal fish regardless on this states requirements but daily limits of this state must be recognized at all times". Again it's really important to read your state law carefully.

Again, you didn't fail and I did not read that you wanted people to send you fish. I was sort of prodding you into posting the situation of your state so I could pin it in the Trading dock. When possible I hope someone like yourself will post the actual code from your state and we can then send people "pity fish" to those who reside in that state.

Having said that, I have nothing against having you send me some fish!

Let us know what you want and I'll be the first to offer you some Southern Redbelly dace (send me a PM if you're interested).

I hope I didn't come off as being a trouble maker or malcontent or that I was whinning about the evil game warden. If so it was a failure on my part to communicate effectively. If my language or manner were not in line with forum policy, attribute it to my being new here. I didn't think I was being controversial, just verbalizing what anyone can see for themselves if they scan the forums.

Hehe, You didn't come off as a malcontent at all. I simply saw your point and wanted to run with it. The law is the law and we must deal within it. I would like to help people in areas that are more restrictive than others (that's why we have a trading dock). You're communication skills are well intact, I simply was trying to guide the discussion to be productive.

Phew that's a relief!
I was afraid I'd gotten off on the wrong foot here. I really like this place and hope to stick around and learn and maybe contribute something interesting once and awhile.

I went over and checked the regulations forum and found someone had already posted a link to the Ma regs. Although I'm very familiar with them I reviewed them again to be sure I understood correctly the regs as they apply to this discussion.
I thought I had found a loophole when I saw the phrase "All other freshwater fish" with no closed season. That appeared to open all non-gamefish not specifically protected to unregulated harvest. Unfortunately a little further down under "Prohibited" I found that transporting live fish except bait is prohibited without a permit. That puts me back on the bait list which does not include any darters or banded sunfish or other desirable aquarium species. I guess I need to find out if it's possible to get a permit. I'm sceptical that a hobbyist will be given a permit but I might be wrong. I'll look into it and post results.

Teleost, when I have time to figure out how to PM, I will contact you RE SRBD. Coincidentally I'm upgrading my stream tank from 30 gal to 55 gal. Might just be room in the new tank for something different.