Another Lepomis id

Could be a honed up bluegill with odd colors, it had the look of a miniatus after death. What do ya'll think?

This fish had me stumped before and still has me stumped. It looks like a bluegill form, but the striping is too intense. The barring pattern and count is consistent with bantam, but you said it was too large for that. I honestly don't see any miniatus in it at all, but I didn't see it before it died. This is a tough one. I would like to hear some new opinions.

It was live in that pic. I tried to keep it alive for my tank, but it died after a few days. It was caught in a gill net and stressed too much, and it didnt help that I put on the hot metal of the boat. Miniatus did'nt even cross my mind until it was dead and some of the other color faded. The jaw/head morphology was really different from any bluegill I hvar caught at that size. Of course, I have never seen a miniatus that size. I should have preserved that fish after it died, but it did'nt even cross my mind at the time.

Dredcon,

When you first posted this fish on another site, I flat out asked you what that fish was since it looked odd to me. It looks most like a funky bluegill but not like any other I've seen. I can't help one bit here. I'm no expert on southern sunfish but doesn't look like miniatus but I've not looked at a preserved miniatus either. I would ask for a live shot next change you get.

In that pic it looks nothing like a miniatus except the jaw/head area. I have never seen one that big, and rarely see any banding on them at all. I with I would have taken a pic of it after it died, but that was a bad day and I was'nt thinking after I found it dead. The more I think about it the more confused I get. I need to get my hands on some large miniatus and compare body shape.

The pectoral fin looked to be shorter and rounder that it should be for a bluegill. You cant really see it well in the pic.

My first impression is 'gill. This is why I can't ID sunfish that well - I just toss 'em in the bucket and think "I'll figure it out later". Then they go into the pond and later never comes. Minnows are another matter. I'm very tenacious about ID'ing them if they are large enough.

Unless they're in color, darters all look alike to me. Just a bunch of brown specks on the body.

I have seen two similar looking fish caught out of a lake that had strong populations of both warmouth and bluegill, I assumed it was a hybrid between the two and would think this one is the same. Do both of those occur where you caught this fish? It looks like the mouth size is larger than a gill but smaller than a warmouth also which would fit with that guess and it also has the brown coloration of the warmouth but not quite the right color. I would definately say it is a hybrid of some sort and thats my best guess as to what the parrents were.

Does it have the black spot on the soft portion of the dorsal? I cannot tell from the picture. I was taught in college (and hopefully taught right) that all bluegill will have that black spot, even in death.

Oy, here we go with hybrid talk again. That's gonna be my new tag line. Instead of "it's gonna die" it will be "that's some kind of hybrid".

Let me make Irate irrational, that is a hybrid of some sort. I will give I.M. some slack , since we have similar tastes in beer ( see his pond construction pictures ).

Popular consensus sees a bluegill, which is clearly not a bluegill. That is what I see as well. When identifying hybrid sunfish this is a useful jumping off point. You take the most obvious specie the comes to mind to base your search.

Then, what is different? This fish has red bands, and the back ground is green. The shape and mouth is pretty typical of a bluegill, but those colors. Could it be a sport? Not likely since bluegills just don't look like this in pattern no matter what colors you change.

Another clue, shorter pecs. That leaves out a hybrid with a chincapin ( redear or shellcracker). A pumpkinseed bluegill cross which I am familiar with in my neck of the woods keeps that long pectoral fin because both parents have it.

To throw a monkey wrench into it, the hybrid offspring can be different depending on which species was which parent ,but that is not a big thing, since these variations are not that drastic. What sunfish in that range has stubbier pectoral fins, but a bluegill basic shape and pattern. I keep coming back to redspotted sunfish.

Unless it is a three way cross ( a hybrid spawning with another species of sunfish not one of which was its parent) that leads me to suspect the only possible mate to a bluegill was a redspotted sunfish. A bantam is quite possible, but where did this fish get all its red coloration from?

Seeing it alive would really help, photos never do fish justice, especially those you need to look for particular colors and patterns that are not obvious.

Here are two hybrids. The top one is a green sunfish female with a male red spotted sunfish. Doesn't look a whole lot like either, but sort of like a redspotted. The bottom is a orangespotted bluegill hybrid. Kind of hard to pick out the orangespot, or is it?

I know, I am splitting hairs here, but when it comes to figuring out a sunfish hybrid, you have to split hairs that are already split!