Tank filtration

OK.. I know this forum is filled with experts so I am going to ask for some advise on filters.. I have a 125 gallon tank with a total of 10 fish.. 3 longears, 2 bluegills, 1 very small channel catfish, 1 faux carp( Koi), 2 green Corys, and 1 redtail shark. None of the fish are larger than 4 inches.. The substrate is store bought river pebble and I am not using any live plants.. I currently am only running a Rena Philstar XP4 using the spraybar.. The water is clear.. but not crystal clear.. The fish are all doing very well but I have the feeling I should have another filter to bring the clarity to the next level.. I should mention that all of the fish are eating flake food(Tetramin) only.. I know I had an initial algae bloom as this tank has only been up and running since the end of October.. I don't believe that is the problem anymore.. Should I add another canister filter ??? Sorry for the ignorance but I havn't had a tank since the mid 1980's so am up to speed on whats the best option for a tank of this size..
Any suggestions would be welcomed..
Thanks..

Dale

If the Rena is doing enough bio filtration, then you just need something to polish the water. Getting another canister or even a power filter full of filter floss should work. Activated carbon would also help. End of October? The tank may not be fully cycled. Did you test throughout the cycle?

The tank has probably not completely cycled. Often times there is a period of cloudy water a month or two after set up. In my opinion [hottly contested by "experts" on other forums and in LFSs] this is a harmless bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and will resolve itself in a few weeks with no action on your part. You can try water changes but I've actually seen the "bloom" intensify after a water change. When I worked in the retail pet trade, I used to get in trouble from my bosses for telling people to wait it out. They wanted me to sell them some snake oil. Interesting to note, the ones who took my advice often came back to thank me [and buy some stuff] while the ones who bought the snake oil often never came back at all.
Watch your fish for signs of distress, clamped fins, excessive hiding, not eating, gasping etc. You can also try testing for ammonia and nitrite. If the tests come up clean and the fish look healthy, give it some time before adding any chemicals from the LFS.
PS Adding more filtration is ALWAYS a good thing, no matter what.

Often times there is a period of cloudy water a month or two after set up.

I also recently experienced this period of cloudy water and had read the same advice somewhere to ride it out. It did clear up on its own. I did not change anything.

Thanks for all of the input.. Believe me, the tank looks great and the fish are thriving.. Its not really cloudy at all.. The water is clear.. its just not "perfect".. If I look at the tank straight on, front to back, it does seem crystal clear.. Its only when I look from one of the ends to the other end (72 inches) that it appears less than perfect.. Maybe I am not setting a reasonable standard..??? I am thinking about taking a ride to a local pet shop and see the water in their tanks vs mine.. The tank is new so in reality, I may not have a problem at all.. It seems to be the concensus that as long as PH and other chemistry is good and the fish are healthy, just give it some time.. At any rate, in the future I will add additional filtration as I have been told better to over filtrate than under filtrate.. Thinking about adding another canister since I have a cabinet that is hiding the Rena XP4 already and there is plenty of room for another..
Anyone have any model/brand recommendations ??
Thanks.. This site is really the best..

Dale

Well, this really gets down to personal preference. To me, the XP4 is on the lower margin for a tank that size. You are aiming for 4-5 water turns/hour, and under load your filter is probably doing 3 or fewer (remember, the flow rate stated the the RENA is going to be maximum flow (with no load or head), under ideal circumstances, and exaggerated at that!). I use an Ocean Clear canister w/pleated cartridge and a Little Giant pump rated for 750 gph on a 110 gallon tank. The actual flow rate is maybe 1/2 of that. It does OK, but my water is not crystal clear. I like to use wild driftwood, so it never will be. I don't use carbon any more (which would remove the discoloration) 'cuz I got tired of buying the stuff, and it takes a LOT to fill up that canister.

Well, this really gets down to personal preference. To me, the XP4 is on the lower margin for a tank that size. You are aiming for 4-5 water turns/hour, and under load your filter is probably doing 3 or fewer (remember, the flow rate stated the the RENA is going to be maximum flow (with no load or head), under ideal circumstances, and exaggerated at that!). I use an Ocean Clear canister w/pleated cartridge and a Little Giant pump rated for 750 gph on a 110 gallon tank. The actual flow rate is maybe 1/2 of that. It does OK, but my water is not crystal clear. I like to use wild driftwood, so it never will be. I don't use carbon any more (which would remove the discoloration) 'cuz I got tired of buying the stuff, and it takes a LOT to fill up that canister.

I didn't touch on this point because I'm unfamiliar with the filter in question. I agree with IM, if the filter isn't turning over the total volume at least 4-5 times per hour [if not more], you might be in for problems down the road. Remember, the flow rate drops off quick as the filter ages. Adding more filtration can only be a good thing.
Activated carbon may take out some of the color but not cloudiness caused by stirred up substrate or algae/bacteria bloom. That kind of color is normally associated with aged tank water and is probably not what you're seeing.
I also happen to agree with IM on the use of carbon, even though most "experts" will try to tell you that you can't live without it. Funny, many of the "experts" seem to be selling carbon. Hmm.
Use carbon only as a polish before photographing your tanks or showing them off to special visitors. Spend the money you save on quality frozen or live food for your fish.

The current trend in the aquarium hobby seems to be "carbonless". There is a lot of debate about how long activated carbon is actually "active" for (it appears to be not very long at all). It also has a tendency to release undesirable chemicals back into the tank if left in too long. Most tropical fish hobbyist only use activated carbon for specific purposes like removing medication from the water.

Personally I don't use carbon in my filters. I would rather have more physical media that I never have to change and promotes the growth of more nitrifying bacteria.

trends in the aquarium hobby are a joke. things like carbon are made for a purpose. same goes for undergravel filters (etc...) and other non-essential items.

Personally I don't use carbon in my filters. I would rather have more physical media that I never have to change and promotes the growth of more nitrifying bacteria.

Plastic pot scrubbers work excellently for this!

In my opinion, there is no such thing as over-filtration, only over-circulation, and even that can be negotiated by strategically locating the discharge/s directing their flow into solid objects; hardscape, even the inside of the tank wall itself . However it does seem that you may be a little bit on the "under-filtered" end of the scale, and certainly under- circulated.
First off, gotta give those fishes a good variety of foodS (plural) whether it be live, frozen, freez-dried, pelletized, and even thier veggies. proteins, crude fiber, fat content( watch carefully, especially with live or frozen bloodworms). Don't get me wrong here there are some good quality flake-foods out there, just imagine yourself eating a combination pizza all the time, yes it has ingredients from all the major food groups, but it just ain't healthy all the time.
That algae bloom you had mentioned, that was probably a result of a few things working together; 1) the flake food, somewhat nutrient rich coupled with a few minor " over-feedings" lets just say for example; 2) lack of surface agitation, the concept of spraybars is a fair method of surface agitation and is moderately efficient in shallow tanks and do work in larger aquaria as well as long as there is a moderate current beneath the surface to circulate the water in all levels, thus your probably not getting enough gas exchange at the surface, the retention of carbon dioxide. 3) no plants, no plants to consume the possible excessive levels of co2, and also nothing to release o2 into the water , no plants to consume the partially broken down proteins from the flake food in the form of nitrates( also low o2 levels will, in time, compromise the effectiveness of your biological nitrification process ).
4) I am going to assume you've got a good set of lights or there is a window not too far away letting natural sunlight in....or even both, all these elements come together to make a purdy good recipe for a algae bloom. I've found that a fairly effective method of clearing up a pea-soup bloom, just leave the lights off for a few days, provide ample areation, all without the need or use of potentially harmfull "algae destroyers" which is lethal to some inverts and all bivalves. Watch for signs of any distress during "lights-out", when water has cleared up, do a P.W.C. to reduce the concentration of decaying organic compounds, that is a major consumer of o2 in water.

As far as the use of carbon goes, I have always used it, and always will. yes, tis true that in time the carbon will leach out the very same pollutants/medications that it absorbed a few weeks earlier. Some "brands" retain these compounds longer than others, it is unfortunate that the ones that do have a "longer life" are research-grade material and can add up to a hefty bill in just a few months, especially when used in some of the high capacity canister filters available today.

Sounds like another canister would do ya tons of good, maybe even supplement with a small powerhead of your preference.

P.S. post some pics sometime, sounds like a interesting mix of natives/tropicals, would love to see it !


J.

Thanks for the detailed response.. Much appreciated.. For whatever reason, the water has been getting clearer the last few days.. The tank gets some indirect light and can(if I allow it), get maybe a half hour of direct sunlight from one of the windows.. I have stopped this.. maybe thats why the water is clearer.. ??
As for the food.. I started the fish(natives) off with mealworms initially.. It amazes me how resiliant some fish can be.. The sunfish and bluegills were caught fishing.. not netted.. Yet, they ate the day after they were introduced to the tank.. I wanted to get them used to eating flake food, so I threw in mealworms with the flake food .. As I am sure you know, most of the natives don't take to flakes immediately.. Now, its like a feeding frenzy when I feed them flakes.. I will add some goodies to the mix now that I know they will always take the flake food as well..
Also, I had a feeling having only one canister filter was marginal so will add another as many of you have recommended.. And will be sure that the water is better circulated as well..
It is an interesting tank with the mix of natives and tropicals.. So far, it is working very well.. The dominant Longear for whatever reason gives a "pass" to the 2 green Corys and the Redtail Shark.. All of the others, including the Channel Cat, are fair game.. One thing I have already noticed is that they are growing. The larger of the 2 bluegills is now as big or slighter bigger than the dominant Longear so I am not sure how much longer that fish is going to put up with being chased..
Anyway, I will shoot some pics soon and post.
Thanks for all of the help/ideas..

Dale

Also, I had a feeling having only one canister filter was marginal so will add another as many of you have recommended.. And will be sure that the water is better circulated as well..

A ~$20 air pump and just an air stone (or two) will help to keep the water agitated and use minimal power to do so. I have an AquaClear 500 on my 90 with a two port air pump. One line goes to the sponge filter and the other just makes bubbles, haven't had any clarity problems.

I had an idea to extent the lift tube of an Aquaclear 400 with clear plastic pvc pipe. I don't know if it comes in an appropriate diameter, but I thought it would be worth investigating. I'm looking for a store that sells the stuff. If I can find some that I can just slip over the intake tube, I plan on running it down to the bottom of the tank, putting a 90 degree elbow on that, running more pipe along the bottom for a half foot or so, then putting still another 90 degree elbow on that, then stopping with a couple of inches above the bottom, and putting a sponge over the intake. I'm hoping this would filter in the bottom material, and cut down on the need to vacuum the surface of the sand.

With regard to what's inside the aquaclear, cichlid forum has a page that says to put another sponge on top of the bottom most sponge that comes with the filter. Sounds good to me.

A ~$20 air pump and just an air stone (or two) will help to keep the water agitated and use minimal power to do so. I have an AquaClear 500 on my 90 with a two port air pump. One line goes to the sponge filter and the other just makes bubbles, haven't had any clarity problems.

I had an idea to extent the lift tube of an Aquaclear 400 with clear plastic pvc pipe. I don't know if it comes in an appropriate diameter, but I thought it would be worth investigating. I'm looking for a store that sells the stuff. If I can find some that I can just slip over the intake tube, I plan on running it down to the bottom of the tank, putting a 90 degree elbow on that, running more pipe along the bottom for a half foot or so, then putting still another 90 degree elbow on that, then stopping with a couple of inches above the bottom, and putting a sponge over the intake. I'm hoping this would filter in the bottom material, and cut down on the need to vacuum the surface of the sand.

With regard to what's inside the aquaclear, cichlid forum has a page that says to put another sponge on top of the bottom most sponge that comes with the filter. Sounds good to me.

I love filter mods, I don't think I have 1 filter I have not modded to some extent.

We need to run a monthly contest where whoever has the best filter mod each month wins a gift certificate to fund their future modding madness.

We need to run a monthly contest where whoever has the best filter mod each month wins a gift certificate to fund their future modding madness.

I have a years supply of entries already

Do any of 'em use lasers?

Do any of 'em use lasers?

The aquascum 5000

So, dragging this discussion back from the ridiculous and hypothetical, and from the ridiculously hypothetical, and back to the realm of the obsessively technical:

I dropped the idea of getting clear plastic pvc, which I haven't seen in the stores around here. Instead, I found that a three quarter inch elbow fits over the Aquaclear intake I found a smaller pvc piece, only about two inches long or so, and that fits inside an aquaclear intake tube. So now I can extend the lift tube, using aquaclear intake tubes, down to the bottom of the tank, bend the intake over 90 degrees, snake it along the bottom to the opposite end of the tank, where I can put a sponge over the interface of the intake and the water. In theory, anyway, with the filterbox on the far right of the tank, the outflow will go around the rock pile in the center of the tank, with just enough steam to get it over to the left hand side of the tank, where the intake will get the water moving to the rear left of the tank. The sponge (again, in theory) should soak up most of the debris, greatly cutting back on the need to vacuum the sand.

The aquascum 5000