Jump to content


Pteronotropis


33 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_tglassburner_*

Guest_tglassburner_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:37 AM

Looking for photos of all Pteronotrpis species.

I am working one something that I hope to eventually get published in AC and am looking for photos to use with it. I will give you credit for your photos of course.

These are all the Pteronotropis species I know of, if there are others please let me know.

P. signippinnis
P. hubbsi
P. welaka
P. euryzonus
P. hypselopterus
P. stonei
P. grandipinnis
P. merlini
P. metallicus


Thanks guys

Tom

EDIT: Added grandipinnis, metallicus and merlini to the list

#2 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guest_farmertodd_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:11 AM

Tom,

You're more than welcome to use the pictures I've posted in the Gallery. I have a better picture of hyselopterus and finally have some of these signipinnis and merlini reared to a good size to photograph at home. I can get those for you. I'm hoping to do some photography this weekend.

The others that are missing are grandipinnis and I think that N. harperi (redeye chub) will be a part of Pteronotropis shortly, as I saw a paper presented at ASIH last year saying it was monophyletic once harperi was added to the genus. Don't know if that's been published or not. Maybe Dave or Bruce or someone can chime in on that.

Todd

#3 Guest_tglassburner_*

Guest_tglassburner_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:16 AM

Tom,

You're more than welcome to use the pictures I've posted in the Gallery. I have a better picture of hyselopterus and finally have some of these signipinnis and merlini reared to a good size to photograph at home. I can get those for you. I'm hoping to do some photography this weekend.

The others that are missing are grandipinnis and I think that N. harperi (redeye chub) will be a part of Pteronotropis shortly, as I saw a paper presented at ASIH last year saying it was monophyletic once harperi was added to the genus. Don't know if that's been published or not. Maybe Dave or Bruce or someone can chime in on that.

Todd

I may contact you about your merlini. Thanks Todd.

#4 Guest_wegl2001_*

Guest_wegl2001_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:43 AM

Tom,
What about P. metallicus ?

#5 Guest_Mysteryman_*

Guest_Mysteryman_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:54 AM

You missed a couple, ( at least ) namely:

P. merlini
P. grandipinnis

These two occur in very limited ranges.

P. merlini, the Orangetail Shiner, is found only in the wiregrass corner region of southeast Alabama. I personally prefer to call it by another name, the Grand Wizard Shiner, since it's name is merlini and it comes from where it does. The name merlin in this case actually only refers to Merlin, the brother of Royal Suttkus, the ichthyologist who named it. Still, I thought Grand Wizard was funny.
The Orangetail appears to be an intermediate species between hypselopterus and euryzonus, likely evolving from hybridization between these other two, neither of which now occur in the area where merlini lives. Unless Todd made some, no photos of this species seem to exist. It resembles a euryzonus in which the "broad stripe" has diffused even more broadly to the point of being nearly unrecognizable as such anymore, while also fading considerably.
Only a few people have maintained this species since it's recent discovery, and I don't know if anyone has yet spawned it. I suspect that it spawns in euryzonus fashion, not in hypselopterus fashion, and that an effort to spawn it that way may prove more productive.

P.grandipinnis, the Apalachee Shiner, looks a lot like a Sailfin, but with, as the name suggests, a grander sail. It occurs mainly in the Chattahoochee/Apalachee delta area near Appalachicola. There's not much more I can add about this one.

P. metallicus is a version from further down south in the penninsular part of Florida, starting around Gainesville. I am not sure if this is still regarded a valid species. It looks like a hypselopterus with more red in the fins, and the green tends to be more vivid. I should point out though, that down there a lot of fish start to look different than "normal" on account of getting stronger sunlight, and they develop more pigmentation as a result. ( sunblock ) Just one look at the Oscars in the Everglades would demonstrate this quite well. For now, I'm going to assume that it still IS a good species, although that may be subject to change ( read next paragraph )

You should also know that the Redeye Chub, Notropis harperi, is being reworked with the rest of Pteronotropis, and is expected to be soon renamed to reflect it's new inclusion into this group. Pteronotropis harperi would be my guess at a likely new name. On the other hand, maybe the subgenus of Alburnops, to which all but welaka and hubbsi belong, will be elevated to full generic status. Since harperi is much more closely related to welaka and hubbsi than to the others, I doubt it would be assigned to Alburnops. I can only make wild guesses about such things, of course.

Finally, there MIGHT be a totally new species ( P. eglini ? ) living in a small area on a huge restricted airbase in the western Florida Panhandle. I've heard two separate and fairly well matching descriptions of this fish from people who thought I might be able to tell them what it was they saw, but the description doesn't match any of the other species of the "Alburnops complex." I haven't seen one, so I can't really be sure it exists at all, let alone whether it's something new. I mention it only because maybe someday someone will look back on this and say "A-HA! Trey knew about this new fish way back in 2008."

EDIT: Jumpin' catfish! When I started typing, nobody had responded yet. Now the thread is full of posts and I look like an idiot. *sigh*

#6 Guest_daveneely_*

Guest_daveneely_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 12:49 PM

You should also know that the Redeye Chub, Notropis harperi, is being reworked with the rest of Pteronotropis, and is expected to be soon renamed to reflect it's new inclusion into this group. Pteronotropis harperi would be my guess at a likely new name. On the other hand, maybe the subgenus of Alburnops, to which all but welaka and hubbsi belong, will be elevated to full generic status. Since harperi is much more closely related to welaka and hubbsi than to the others, I doubt it would be assigned to Alburnops. I can only make wild guesses about such things, of course.


Huh? The type species of Alburnops is A. blennius; the various critters now included in Pteronotropis are not particularly closely related. Mayden et al. (2007) elevated Alburnops to generic status (along with Miniellus, Graodus, and Hudsonius), and included "N." baileyi, "N." chalybaeus, "N." texanus, "N." xaenocephalus, "N." asperifrons, "N." candidus, "N." shumardi, "N." chrosomus, "N." rubricroceus, "N." lutipinnus, "N." bairdi, "N." edwardraneyi, "N." blennius, "N." petersoni, and "N." potteri within it.

The paper was published in a semi-obscure book (citation below) that has not been widely disseminated yet, so only time will tell if others follow this or not...

If I remember correctly, the remainder of "Pteronotropis" are not monophyletic, even with the inclusion of "N. harperi". "P." welaka and "P." hubbsi are sister taxa and not closely related to "real" Pteronotropis (the type species is P. hypselopterus, so that name isn't going to change).

----------

Mayden, R.L., A.M. Simons, R.M. Wood, P.M. Harris, and B.R. Kuhajda. 2007. Molecular systematics of North American notropin shiners and minnows (Cypriniformes: Cyprinidae). Pages 72-101 IN: Studies of North American Desert Fishes in Honor of E. P. (Phil) Pister, Conservationist, edited by Ma. de Lourdes Lozano-Vilano and A. J. Contreras-Balderas, Monterrey, Nuevo León, México; Universidad Autónoma de Nuevo León, Facultad de Ciencias Biológicas (ISBN 970-694-336-6).

#7 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guest_ashtonmj_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:04 PM

whoa whoa whoa....you're saying that the group of "Notropis"' species you mentioned are now a "new" genus?!?! That seems like an odd way to introduce a new genus into the literature. What are you doing to us Dave! :biggrin:

Did you mean "N." hudsonius is now in Alburnops as well or was part of another elavation to generic status?

#8 Guest_dsmith73_*

Guest_dsmith73_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:38 PM

This seems like a very odd grouping of fairly different looking fish. I can see making the Hydrophlox species a full genus, but including the others is interesting.

#9 Guest_Mysteryman_*

Guest_Mysteryman_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:40 PM

Whoops. Well, wild guesses, indeed.
Where in the heck did I get my info? Goldstein?
Oh, waitaminute.. I know what I did. My source was an old one that still called Pteros plain Notros, and also linked them in with Alburnops, which was an error I didn't recognize as such when I saw it listed in that subgenus.
Sorry about that. I have, however, seen this group listed as being subgenus Alburnops in another place as well, which is what messed me up so. I now realize that the second guy must have repeated the first one's mistake.
*sigh* I really wish I had time enough to keep more current on these things. How embarassing.

#10 Guest_wegl2001_*

Guest_wegl2001_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 01:57 PM

Dick Stober used to collect the "p. egleni" way back in the 70's and sell them in his pet shop as "scarlet notropis". Dick has always felt that they were different from the rest of the sailfins and he has collected a lot more sailfins than I ever will. He took a group of NANFA members down there to collect them about 7-8 years ago. I wasn't interested in shiners, at the time, so I didn't keep any. I do remember that they had the typical sailfin gun metal blue on the side but their fins had very dark red markings. I can't remember how much of the fins were covered by the red markings but they didn't look like any other pteronotropis I have seen. A really nice fish. Two of the guys on the trip went back there a couple of years later and, while they were collecting, a couple of good ol boys with the Shalimar police department stopped to have a "chat". The nanfa guys were told that they were in a "restricted area" and couldn't fish there. They thought he was refering to the air force base but it turns out that they had been told that this creek contained the federally protected okaloosa darter. Being good NANFA members these gentlemen had already done their research and knew that this creek was not in the okaloosa's range. :glare: But, as my freind told me later, they had all the guns. At first the cops wanted them to release all their fish in the creek. This was the last stop on a trip that covered 3 states so they had fish from a lot of different drainages. They were able to convince them to only release the eglin fish. After they got back home they got the recovery plan for the okaloosa darter and they were right. We haven't collected there since then.

#11 Guest_Mysteryman_*

Guest_Mysteryman_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 02:13 PM

Ah, well, well... make that THREE similar descriptions from three different sources, one of them being linked to Dick Stober, who may be a 4th. Okay, that's good enough for me; the Eglin Shiner almost certainly exists. Now we just have to find it again and get it studied and described.

Hmmm... "Shalimar Shiner" also has a very nice ring to it... I think I like it much better.

It does sound like a very nice fish. A red & orange-finned sailfin with bright scarlet dots on the peduncle, where a flagfin would have yellow dots.

#12 Guest_daveneely_*

Guest_daveneely_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 02:24 PM

whoa whoa whoa....you're saying that the group of "Notropis"' species you mentioned are now a "new" genus?!?! That seems like an odd way to introduce a new genus into the literature... Did you mean "N." hudsonius is now in Alburnops as well or was part of another elavation to generic status?


Nope, didn't mean that at all - it's now Hudsonius hudsonius, along with H. altipinnis and H. cummingsae. You'll also want to re-learn Miniellus procne (along with M. heterodon, M. stramineus, and M. topeka). None of these are new genera, they're old names left over from the pre-Reeve Bailey lumping era, when you could make sweeping taxonomic changes without worrying about whether they were supported by any data...

#13 Guest_ashtonmj_*

Guest_ashtonmj_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 02:47 PM

Is there any resource that lists synonyms and prior classifications of fish species like the species accounts in Mussels of Tennessee? Because that would be fan fricking tastic. The AFS names book doesn't do that. As much as I'm trying to catch up with recent changes and broaden my own knowledge and understanding in one of my weak areas it's pretty daunting with the pace you guys keep. Knowing where everything is going can reallybe helped when I know where everything was.

#14 Guest_daveneely_*

Guest_daveneely_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:04 PM

Is there any resource that lists synonyms and prior classifications of fish species like the species accounts in Mussels of Tennessee? Because that would be fan fricking tastic. The AFS names book doesn't do that. As much as I'm trying to catch up with recent changes and broaden my own knowledge and understanding in one of my weak areas it's pretty daunting with the pace you guys keep. Knowing where everything is going can reallybe helped when I know where everything was.


The best available resource is the Catalog of Fishes:

http://www.calacadem...yology/catalog/

The only downside is that it sometimes takes a while for new accounts or classification changes to make it in...

#15 Guest_farmertodd_*

Guest_farmertodd_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:33 PM

What a mess. I'm sticking with darters as my systems. That's enough to bother with :)

Todd

#16 Guest_uniseine_*

Guest_uniseine_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 07:59 PM

<clip>
Only a few people have maintained this species since it's recent discovery, and I don't know if anyone has yet spawned it. I suspect that it spawns in euryzonus fashion, not in hypselopterus fashion, and that an effort to spawn it that way may prove more productive.
<clip>


I had first and second generation offspring from Merlini two years ago. I treated them the same as other Pteronotropis. I had some current in the tank, and Java Moss over an egg saver. After working with removing the eggs, I found more fry up by the surface in with the adults.

Please outline euryzonus fashion and hypselopterus fashion for me.

#17 Guest_tglassburner_*

Guest_tglassburner_*
  • Guests

Posted 08 January 2008 - 08:13 PM

I had first and second generation offspring from Merlini two years ago. I treated them the same as other Pteronotropis. I had some current in the tank, and Java Moss over an egg saver. After working with removing the eggs, I found more fry up by the surface in with the adults.

Please outline euryzonus fashion and hypselopterus fashion for me.

Yes Please do.

#18 Guest_Mysteryman_*

Guest_Mysteryman_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 January 2008 - 03:53 AM

Hmmm... well, you had Java Moss in the tank and used an egg saver, so that makes it tricky to tell exactly what happened. You covered all the bases, you see. Did you ever observe any actual spawning behavior?

Euryzonus is an egg-depositor, while the others are egg-scatterers to varying degree. Did your merlini put their eggs in the moss, or just scatter them? Did you collect the eggs by removing the moss or by siphoning under the egg saver? Were eggs just all over the place, or concentrated in certain small areas? Were the eggs adhesive? Were the FRY adhesive for a few days before becoming free-swimming, as euryzonus fry?
I haven't spawned merlini yet, but I did have one failed attempt during which I used no plants, but did everything else the same way I do Flagfins. Bear in mind that an "attempt" with this fish can take over a month, and then I have to wait until next year, since I don't have much of a winter to work with for overwintering. If I still had a chiller it would be easier, sure. At any rate, I have flag and sailfins pretty much down to a science now, so I would have figured Orangetails would have at least done SOMETHING under the same conditions if they liked them. They didn't, though, so my plan was to try again, next time with plants and yarn-mops as described by Ray Katula for euryzonus. I'm not just spouting off wild theories for no good reason, you know.

Yes, I do see the folly of assuming too much from one failed experiment. On the other hand, I never expected it to succeed without plants, and only wanted to make sure that it wouldn't before trying it again with plants, so when I got the results I expected, I let my satisfaction get in the way of my objectivity. Sorry about that. Now you've spawned the fish WITH plants, and once again I find myself wondering if my theory is correct in the face of such encouraging data, fuzzy though it may be. So please, just tell us what happened, if you happened to observe anything as it happened.

#19 Guest_uniseine_*

Guest_uniseine_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 January 2008 - 11:12 AM

Hmmm... well, you had Java Moss in the tank and used an egg saver, so that makes it tricky to tell exactly what happened. You covered all the bases, you see. Did you ever observe any actual spawning behavior?

Euryzonus is an egg-depositor, while the others are egg-scatterers to varying degree. Did your merlini put their eggs in the moss, or just scatter them? Did you collect the eggs by removing the moss or by siphoning under the egg saver? Were eggs just all over the place, or concentrated in certain small areas? Were the eggs adhesive? Were the FRY adhesive for a few days before becoming free-swimming, as euryzonus fry?


I can't remember specifics, but since I have treated all Pteronotropis the same I can answer. I shook off the Java Moss then siphoned the bare bottom of the tank under the egg saver. I have seen spawning behavior in the tank but have not witnessed actual eggs. Eggs non-adhesive.

I have seen Pteronotropis (not necessarily Merlini) fry glued to the side of the plastic shoebox used for hatching.

#20 Guest_storeye_*

Guest_storeye_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 May 2008 - 11:09 AM

Dick Stober used to collect the "p. egleni" way back in the 70's and sell them in his pet shop as "scarlet notropis". Dick has always felt that they were different from the rest of the sailfins and he has collected a lot more sailfins than I ever will. He took a group of NANFA members down there to collect them about 7-8 years ago. I wasn't interested in shiners, at the time, so I didn't keep any. I do remember that they had the typical sailfin gun metal blue on the side but their fins had very dark red markings. I can't remember how much of the fins were covered by the red markings but they didn't look like any other pteronotropis I have seen. A really nice fish. Two of the guys on the trip went back there a couple of years later and, while they were collecting, a couple of good ol boys with the Shalimar police department stopped to have a "chat". The nanfa guys were told that they were in a "restricted area" and couldn't fish there. They thought he was refering to the air force base but it turns out that they had been told that this creek contained the federally protected okaloosa darter. Being good NANFA members these gentlemen had already done their research and knew that this creek was not in the okaloosa's range. :glare: But, as my freind told me later, they had all the guns. At first the cops wanted them to release all their fish in the creek. This was the last stop on a trip that covered 3 states so they had fish from a lot of different drainages. They were able to convince them to only release the eglin fish. After they got back home they got the recovery plan for the okaloosa darter and they were right. We haven't collected there since then.


Thanks for this post. I am really interested in hearing more about these fish (P. eglini). I went to the Yellow River and found some Pteronotropis-looking fish that resemble the sailfins. They had red tails and from above there was a subtle tiger striping that seemed to be enhanced when they pale. The leading edge of the dorsal fin is black. They were schooled in the typical clear tannic stream near vegetation, but don't seem to be a perfect match to the images I can find of Pteronotropis signipinnus. the tail was not 2 tone - yellow w/ red at the tip, but all red.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users