Compatibility questions

Hi everyone! I hope you don't mind answering a few questions for a newbie!

My workplace has a large (ca. 8' X 3' X 3') aquarium that is currently sitting empty; they would like to set it up with native fish and turtles. I have been placed in charge of acquiring the livestock. I have a fair amount of experience keeping herps, but only a little keeping fish. The turtles we already have; they include two red-eared sliders, a painted turtle, and we might also include some musk turtles if we can set up the cage furniture properly for them; these turtles are currently kept with fish, which they ignore utterly, so that shouldn't be a problem.

So here's what I need to know: what native fish would work well in such a tank? Which species are incompatible with one another? I would like to get a nice diversity of species going, as it's meant to be an educational display. I'm thinking fish in the 5-10" max. size range would be best; I'm not foolish enough to put cute baby largemouths or gar in there.

So, here is a list of local fish of appropriate size that I think I am likely to be able to acquire:

Bluegill
Green sunfish
Long-eared sunfish
Red-eared sunfish
Warmouth
Crappie
Flier
Rock bass

Yellow bass

Grass pickerel

Yellow bullhead
Black bullhead

Sculpin

Logperch

Chubsucker
Hogsucker
Redhorse

Creek chub
Golden shiner
Stoneroller

If anyone can help me whittle down this list, I'd appreciate it. The tank will definitely include centrarchids, so if any of these others won't work with them, I'd like to know that.

Hi everyone! I hope you don't mind answering a few questions for a newbie!

My workplace has a large (ca. 8' X 3' X 3') aquarium that is currently sitting empty; they would like to set it up with native fish and turtles. I have been placed in charge of acquiring the livestock. I have a fair amount of experience keeping herps, but only a little keeping fish. The turtles we already have; they include two red-eared sliders, a painted turtle, and we might also include some musk turtles if we can set up the cage furniture properly for them; these turtles are currently kept with fish, which they ignore utterly, so that shouldn't be a problem.

So here's what I need to know: what native fish would work well in such a tank? Which species are incompatible with one another? I would like to get a nice diversity of species going, as it's meant to be an educational display. I'm thinking fish in the 5-10" max. size range would be best; I'm not foolish enough to put cute baby largemouths or gar in there.

So, here is a list of local fish of appropriate size that I think I am likely to be able to acquire:

Bluegill
Green sunfish
Long-eared sunfish
Red-eared sunfish
Warmouth
Crappie
Flier
Rock bass

Yellow bass

Grass pickerel

Yellow bullhead
Black bullhead

Sculpin

Logperch

Chubsucker
Hogsucker
Redhorse

Creek chub
Golden shiner
Stoneroller

If anyone can help me whittle down this list, I'd appreciate it. The tank will definitely include centrarchids, so if any of these others won't work with them, I'd like to know that.

Pickerel are not good tankmates for sunfishes and turtles since they can't handle their aggressive.

Logperch won't last in same tank with rock bass, crappie and green sunfish.

Yellow bullhead are very aggressive and they will kill any tankmates with them, even other bullheads. Black bullhead are okay but they will eventually eating their tankmates.

Scuplins are picky eaters and they need current and a little cooler water.

Redhorse are no-no, they are too big and need to schooling with their own species. Hogsucker are okay but they can reach more than 20 inches.

Yellow bass are okay but they are also schooling species and need more room than sunfish species.

Crappies and flier are least aggressive than the sunfishes. Green are most aggressive sunfish.



Central stoneroller need a supply of algae and little current.

So you have few fishes left: most sunfishes, golden shiners, creek chubs and probably chubsuckers.

Why you would add turtles with fishes? Turtle + fish = fat turtle. I won't put the turtles with the fishes. And turtles have different requirements from the fishes. Its just I never heard that turtles can kept with other fish.

Pickerel are not good tankmates for sunfishes and turtles since they can't handle their aggressive.

Logperch won't last in same tank with rock bass, crappie and green sunfish.

Yellow bullhead are very aggressive and they will kill any tankmates with them, even other bullheads. Black bullhead are okay but they will eventually eating their tankmates.

Scuplins are picky eaters and they need current and a little cooler water.

Redhorse are no-no, they are too big and need to schooling with their own species. Hogsucker are okay but they can reach more than 20 inches.

Yellow bass are okay but they are also schooling species and need more room than sunfish species.

Crappies and flier are least aggressive than the sunfishes. Green are most aggressive sunfish.
Central stoneroller need a supply of algae and little current.

So you have few fishes left: most sunfishes, golden shiners, creek chubs and probably chubsuckers.

Why you would add turtles with fishes? Turtle + fish = fat turtle. I won't put the turtles with the fishes. And turtles have different requirements from the fishes. Its just I never heard that turtles can kept with other fish.

Thanks, Butch.

I'm working on this tank for my employers; they want turtles and fish. That said, these turtles will not attack fish. I have offered them numerous minnows, small sunfish, and goldfish of various sizes, and they ignore them (although they will readily eat dead fish). I have feeder goldfish in my turtle tank that have been in there for over a year.

Your suggestions all make sense. You didn't mention the rock bass: will they be all right with sunfish?

Pickerel are not good tankmates for sunfishes and turtles since they can't handle their aggressive.

Logperch won't last in same tank with rock bass, crappie and green sunfish.

Yellow bullhead are very aggressive and they will kill any tankmates with them, even other bullheads. Black bullhead are okay but they will eventually eating their tankmates. I think you will better off with stonecats or tadpole madtoms since they (expect stonecat) rarely reach big size and don't eat sunfishes very well.

Scuplins are picky eaters and they need current and a little cooler water.

Redhorse are no-no, they are too big and need to schooling with their own species. Hogsucker are okay but they can reach more than 20 inches.

Yellow bass are okay but they are also schooling species and need more room than sunfish species.

Crappies and flier are least aggressive than the sunfishes. Green are most aggressive sunfish.

Central stoneroller need a supply of algae and little current but also they won't be last with rock bass. Golden shiners are very skittish fish and often bonked into the tank when they are spooked so its best to add plants in the end of tank. Creek chubs are a good choice but they produced lots of waste (then so are sunfish)

So you have few fishes left: most sunfishes, golden shiners, creek chubs and probably chubsuckers. Just provide them with lots of caves, plants and filter.

Why you would add turtles with fishes? Turtle + fish = fat turtle. I won't put the turtles with the fishes. And turtles have different requirements from the fishes. Its just I never heard that turtles can kept with other fish.

What's wrong with other nonresidents native fishes such as smaller sunfishes species, mudminnows, madtoms and northern studfish?

Butch,

There's nothing wrong with smaller sunfish, madtoms, or mudminnows, except that I seldom catch them; if I do chance to come across a few I'll be sure to add them. I can easily acquire studfish and other topminnows, but I thought the centrarchids would probably eat them; the same goes for the various studfish-sized shiners and darters.

This is a 600 gallon tank. With appropriate cover, I do not see that many on your list that are incompatible.

The following fish would be tricky
Sculpin will likely be eaten, or their food requirements will not be met. Temps might also be a problem

Logperch will likely be eaten, or their food requirements will not be met

Chubsucker will likely be eaten, or their food requirements will not be met
Hogsucker tough to feed
Redhorse tough to feed

Creek chub This should be looked at as a temporary tankmate, soon to be a feeder
Golden shiner This should be looked at as a temporary tankmate, soon to be a feeder
Stoneroller This should be looked at as a temporary tankmate, soon to be a feeder

As far as aggression goes. the Green sunfish, and longear sunfish are the problems. One of each as specimens should be fine.
I think pickerel would be fine also, as long as you keep a heavy amount of feeders in the tank. They will not compete for food as it is dropped in, but they will pick them off slowly as the opportunity presents itself.

I would not overlook gar. Gentle. If you can keep pickerel in there, you can also keep gar. Also the gar are more likely to switch to prepared foods. It will be many years before a gar outgrows this tank.

STAY AWAY FROM BLACKBASS!

I am not taking this from what I have read about these species. I have kept most of them, and most of the larger fish have been kept in community in a 240. I have not kept yellow bass, flier, or redhorse.
As long as you realize that the smaller fishes on your list may become food, I do not see too many problems.

You will need one hell of a filtration system!

Thanks, Skipjack.

I would like to see as much diversity in the tank as possible, without overcrowding or stressing the fish. I hadn't considered gar due to their size; I suppose I could get a smallish shortnose. I just worry what will happen to it when it does outgrow the tank; I will not be working here anymore, and whoever the current caretakers are may just leave it in there until it's too big to turn around!

As far as filtration goes, the tank has a built-in filtration system. There is a false back about 3" deep running the length of the aquarium; the tank water spills over into the back (which is largely filled with BioBalls), down to a pump (I can't get a good look at it due to the tank's placement, so I'm not sure what it is) and is pumped out through a flexible spout at each end of the tank. I'm not sure what the flow rate is, but the filtration area is enormous (ca. 4 cubic feet with the water level at 2 ft.)

With regards to cover: I had planned on sinking some driftwood and plastic replicas of local plants in the tank; will this be adequate, or will I need more rockscaping?

With centrachids, you need dividers. Lay driftwood, plants, whatever to create micro habitats for thes fish to occupy. They will stake a territory, and rarely leave. Rockbass in particular, will find a quiet space, occupy, and defend it. Just break up the tank extensively. You could lay PVC pipe in there, and it would work. Just break it up.

Thanks!

Sorry, I've got another question: should I seal driftwood that's going to be submerged? If so, is ordinary polyurethane adequate, or should I use something else?

Thanks!

Sorry, I've got another question: should I seal driftwood that's going to be submerged? If so, is ordinary polyurethane adequate, or should I use something else?

NO! Sterilize it at most. I just grab it from the river, let it dry, and use it. But that is just me. There is not much reason for driftwood to harbor pathogens. There is no host. I am not saying my way is the safest, but it is the easiest.

NO! Sterilize it at most. I just grab it from the river, let it dry, and use it. But that is just me. There is not much reason for driftwood to harbor pathogens. There is no host. I am not saying my way is the safest, but it is the easiest.

That works for me!

That's what I do for wood in herp habitats, but I was unsure about wood in fish tanks.

That said, these turtles will not attack fish.

It may take weeks or even months, but one day when you least expect it you will arrive to find a gasping fish head on the substrate with no body attached, and a turtle getting a good angle to finish the job on the crunchy skull.

Mark my words.

I don't feel comftable about pickerel with sunfishes especially with rock bass. And turtles too.

You can replace the bullhead with the tadpole madtom or the stonecat and the sunfish rarely will eat madtom.

I think you should get young sunfish, crappie, flier and rock bass, instead of adults. I do know golden shiners can reach more than 10 inch long, so you can put them with young sunfish.

Don't believe that these turtles will not eat fish but they will. There's no single case that turtle can kept with the fishes successfully. And turtles have different requirements from fishes. Im sorry but I don't think it will be always works.

So you should stock all young sunfish species, flier, crappies, rock bass, full grown golden shiner, madtom/stonecat and no one mentioned about the yellow perch?

Hi Butch-

You've got me convinced on the pickerel. As far as the turtles- the employers want them, so I'll just have to accept the occasional fish casualty.

I'll be collecting all these fish locally, and while yellow perch do occur around here, they're something of a rarity; I don't expect to find any. Stonecats or tadpole madtoms would be nice, if I can find them. I haven't had much luck finding madtoms in the past, but I've never gone looking specifically for them; I'll read up on their collecting techniques and see what I can do.

I want to thank all of you guys for your helpful advice!

Okay, I'm one step closer to actually being able to start work on this. The funding isn't secured yet (these tanks are on display in the lobby of the science building at the university where I work), so we've got to run through a few more hurdles to get that done. But plans are finalizing.

The turtles will not go in the 300 gallon tank; they will be kept in the 120 gallon bowfront where they are now, but it will be totally renovated and redecorated, and the tropical fish in it will be taken to new homes.

The big tank will be wholly dedicated to native fish. Hopefully we can start cleaning out the salt residue from its days as a reef tank and collecting and sterilizing driftwood and stones for tank furniture before the funding comes in. My plan right now is to get it decorated, filled, and running for a week or so, then add a bunch of golden shiners and mosquitofish; these guys will hopefully get the nitrogen cycling started, and if any of them die, they can just go to the turtles. Then we'll start collecting and quarantining the specimen fish- I hope to be able to find nice 3-4" long individuals of Lepomis megalotis, L. gulosus, L. microlophus, L. cyanellus, and L. macrochirus, as well as Ambloplites rupestris, Noturus flavus, and perhaps Aplodinotus grunniens. Some large crayfish will probably be added, too. I would really like to have some of the smaller suckers in this tank, but it sounds as though they are unlikely to do well.

But now I have more questions.

1) When quarantining fish, how long is long enough? Should all fish be medically treated, and if so, how?

2) Will I be able to grow plants in this set up, and if so, which ones? The tank is currently provided with twelve 48" long 40W lamps, and there is room for 4 more lamps.
I had previously discarded the notion of live plants due to the destructive potential of the turtles, but that is no longer an issue. I would prefer to have the plants potted so they might easily be removed and so that the tank floor might be covered with gravel alone. I really like the idea of having big Vallisneria and Potamogeton thickets in the tank, but I'm not sure it's feasible.

3) Is the Top Fin bacteria starter solution available at PetSmart effective?

4) Will ambient light at night stress the fish? The tank lights will be on a timer, but the tank is in a building lobby, and the ceiling lights are left on at all times. I'm especially concerned about the stonecats or any other catfish that might be introduced to the tank; would the lack of a true dark period interfere with them coming out to feed?

Any and all help is appreciated!