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Ok..what shiners are these?

Started by Guest_Nightwing_* , Jan 13 2008 10:26 PM

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16 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:26 PM

Originaly, I pegged this as a weed shiner, but in looking deeper I'm pretty sure that's not it(besides the fact that it's endangered...It just does not look quite right). I then went on to black nose or black chin shiner...However, I'm not all that great at ID of shiners(actually...I've never really done it!) so I'd like the experts opinion on what these are!
They were collected from a smallish, clear sand bottom forest lake(no development at all) in south western Lower Michigan. When the photos were taken(about a day after collection) they were around an inch or so long. Some are now approaching 2.5" I'd guess. They have taken to tank life extremely well, and seem to be very hardy(every one survived an initial bout of ich, no losses).
Anyway...fire away! I may offer some of these up on a lottery(not yet decided if I need more room) and if so, really want a positive ID before I do.
Posted Image

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#2 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:47 PM

Hi Paul,

Nice pictures! You were right to move toward blacknose or blackchin shiners. The blackchin shiner will have black pigment on the jaw, whereas the blacknose will not. See if you can see the difference in your tank. Many times they'll co-occur, with blackchin hanging out more over vegetation and blacknose over open bottom. As you know, this is a gradient many times in those lakes.

In case you do run across them, weed shiner will have 4 fairly distinct black rays in the anal fin. And they do look quite similar to these guys.

Todd

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#3 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:11 PM

Thanks Todd. I tried to get better photos this evening, but the fact is they are so "happy" in the tank any more that they never stay still enough! However, these fish definitly DO have the black pigment extending down off the upper jaw, and just "cliping" the tip of the lower jaw..so at this point I'm about 90 percent certain they are black chin. The collection itself is a bit embarrassing in hindsight, as I was very much a rookie at the time to collecting(well..with the intent of keeping at least) and never should have kept something I was not sure of an ID of. At the time...I just thought "neat, little shiners, they will look cool!"..and went about my business. Will not happen again. I'm just glad I lucked out, and did not take an endangered species. I will say that as a tank species, these are great. They don't have the flashy color of some of the more southern species, but they have a very nice emerald-gold overall color, with a deep velvety black stripe, and a "glowing" neon-tetra-esque chartreuse - golden "light stripe" above the black. Photos don't do justice to what they look like under a good light.

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#4 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:16 PM

Yeappers, sounds like blackchin to me. They just have that "dab" on end of the lower jaw. The little guys are impossible to tell apart.

I completely agree with you. They're totally under rated in the scheme of things and do great in aquaria. They're touchy though, once water temps get into the 70's. I try to only collect them from cold water, and they've done real well for me.

Todd

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#5 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:30 PM

They look like blacknose or blackchin to me as well. I have a few of both in a tank, they are nice fish. Mine were actually collected with Todd in SE Michigan.

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#6 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:26 AM

Yeappers, sounds like blackchin to me. They just have that "dab" on end of the lower jaw. The little guys are impossible to tell apart.

I completely agree with you. They're totally under rated in the scheme of things and do great in aquaria. They're touchy though, once water temps get into the 70's. I try to only collect them from cold water, and they've done real well for me.

Todd

Given my tank temps in mid summer(78 to 80), I would never have guessed they were heat sensitive! Perhaps the good water movement I have helps, as the darters also came through those temps with no problems.

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#7 Guest_BTDarters_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:11 AM

Paul,

I have to chime in here and say that they look like Blackchin Shiners to me as well. I currently have one in one of my planted nano-tanks and am really enjoying the little guy. These are great fish! Nice pics by the way! To me, it seems like I can see the black line running onto the chin. As stated already by others, that would seal the ID as a Blackchin.

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#8 Guest_scottefontay_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:15 AM

Given my tank temps in mid summer(78 to 80), I would never have guessed they were heat sensitive! Perhaps the good water movement I have helps, as the darters also came through those temps with no problems.

I've had a bunch of black-nosed shiners in my planted 55 for a while, they came off a sandy bottomed lake. Assimilated real quick. They were being kept with some small gold shiners, banded killis, tesselated darter and blue spotted sunfish, until i added a heater (tank was hitting 60 at night and the plants I have in there were dying. Then the ich started, real nasty like I have never seen it before. lost all the blacknosed real quick, all others were okay after hospital tank.

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#9 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:21 AM

Given my tank temps in mid summer(78 to 80), I would never have guessed they were heat sensitive! Perhaps the good water movement I have helps, as the darters also came through those temps with no problems.

I said that ambigiously... For collection temps. They're fine once acclimated. They just seem to get into a mess of parasites once they're warmed up and spawning in the wild. You look at them sideways and they're dead

Todd

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#10 Guest_fundulus_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:54 AM

I said that ambigiously... For collection temps. They're fine once acclimated. They just seem to get into a mess of parasites once they're warmed up and spawning in the wild. You look at them sideways and they're dead

Todd

I've noticed that colored-up shiners tend to be fragile. I'd guess that a lot of that is because elevated levels of steroids like testosterone and estrogen are immunosuppressant, especially the testosterone, so an individual is prone to a lot of opportunistic infections. (And I've always wondered about athletes like Barry Bonds, but that's a whole different thread I'll leave alone.)

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#11 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:34 PM

I am wondering if the reason these have done so well, and acclimated to higher temps well, was that I caught them when they were still quite small and immature(I think some were under an inch long at the time of capture)? They have essentially "grown up" in the tank.

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#12 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:08 PM

That's another big part of it. It's hard when you're the kid in the candy shop and you get a huge goregous specimen to say no. But it really is best to start with juveniles and grow them up, for the most part.

For example, I've got a male northern studfish pushing 7" now, and you'd never have kept that guy in the tank for even a week if you took it that size from the wild. He'd bust the canopy glass freakin' out.

Some stuff won't color up though for some people. Probably has to do with food and temperature. I haven't had trouble with this in the way I've done things.

Todd

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#13 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 07:47 PM

I got some more pics today(nearly impossible..they will NOT stay still!), and pretty much certain they are black chins.
Before shipping though, really want to be 100 percent(or as close as possible..) so here is the latest attempt:
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#14 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:58 PM

If they're weed shiner, they're going to have that pigment in the anal fin. The lower jaw of the weed shiner is also more underslung.

I just shot some pictures to see if I can help... The third picture here is confounding, but I thought I should post it anyway. These are weed shiner from Southern Alabama and the Florida Panhandle.

weedshiner_01.jpg 46.67KB 0 downloads

weedshiner_02.jpg 39.71KB 0 downloads

weedshiner_03.jpg 67.06KB 0 downloads

And then some with higher contrast on the anal fin... I hope you can see the coloration.

weedshiner01.jpg 54.51KB 0 downloads

weedshiner02.jpg 55.61KB 0 downloads

So yeah, I still think what you have are blackchin. But without getting a good pic of that anal fin, it's not conclusive.

Todd

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#15 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 09:46 PM

Todd, no pigment at all on the anal fins that I can see.

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#16 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:09 PM

while I can say I did once find the extirpated Weed shiner in Michigan.(Last population known maybe and not seen since in the locality). I can assure you the chances are very very very slim. I searched most localities throughout southwest Michigan and found none. Others have search most of the suspected or historical distrubution and have found none (Notably Bill Latta who searched intensely for them) your fish are Black chins...

Reference:
Latta, W. C. 2005. Status of Michigan's endangered, threatened, special-concern and other fishes, 1993-2001. Michigan Department of Natural Resources. Fisheries Division Research Report 2079, Ann Arbor. (Available on the DNR website)

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#17 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:33 PM

Richard, that's the impression I had..that weed shiners were extirpated here.
Last pic, forgot to post it earlier, shows the face the best of all of them I think, and clearly shows the black on the chin:
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