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Jonny or Greenside?


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#1 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:42 AM

Ok, not even knowing that greensides lived in Michigan..I've had this pegged as a Jonny since the day I put it in the tank:
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However....in looking at some photos online of greensides, now I don't know. Here are some from Ohio, care of Jonah's Aquarium site..and for all the world they look exactly like what I have:
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What struck me was the pattern on the side, the "leopard spots" along the lower flank are just what are on mine(and the one thing I had NOT seen on Jonny photos, but just chalked it up to my fish being individualy patterned).
What do you guys think..is mind a jonny, or a female greenside?

#2 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:53 AM

Greenside....I thought we've seen these exact pictures before and ID them already several weeks ago...

#3 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:01 PM

I had a video of this fish up back in the summer in a more generalized thread, and someone said they thought it was a greensides..but at the time, I don't think there was any definite ID. I could be wrong, but was under the impression that greensides were known mainly from the south east part of Michigan. This was collected in the central Lower peninsula, well away of where others have mentioned collecting them. I put it back up, mainly due to wanting a more definite I.D. on the fish if possible, due to me getting some greensides here pretty soon.

#4 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 01:08 PM

I had a video of this fish up back in the summer in a more generalized thread, and someone said they thought it was a greensides..but at the time, I don't think there was any definite ID. I could be wrong, but was under the impression that greensides were known mainly from the south east part of Michigan. This was collected in the central Lower peninsula, well away of where others have mentioned collecting them. I put it back up, mainly due to wanting a more definite I.D. on the fish if possible, due to me getting some greensides here pretty soon.

It's a greenside as ashtonmj said!

#5 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 01:30 PM

It's a greenside as ashtonmj said!

Cool! She will finally have some company then!

#6 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:17 PM

Where did you get that from Paul? That may be an undocumented population. It's definately a greenside.

Here's the DNR's distribution map:

http://www.dnr.state...maps/ethble.pdf

If you haven't seen this site, it's quite handy.

http://www.michigan....30538--,00.html

Todd

#7 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:33 PM

What watershed did you get that thing from???

#8 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:46 PM

Todd, thanks for that link, that's a great resource.
I collected this fish in sessions creek, right under the bridge on Riverside Drive in Ionia state Recreation area. This was not the first one I've seen..just assumed they were johnnys.
Here is a google map to the location:
http://maps.google.c... ...m=0&layer=t

Also, please see the included "update" of the Greenside map from the DNR. The location of my collection point is the red dot between Grand Rapids and Lansing. It appears possible this may indeed be a new location documentation.

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#9 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 07:12 PM

Well, it looks like gobies aren't the only thing moving around the Great Lake State in buckets. Sheesh. Who would dump greensides? lol As you can see in the map, this is why Richard and I were both like "Where?!?"

How close are they to that lake I see in the aerial and how heavily is that lake fished? Are the lakes impoundments on Sessions Creek? Have you found them anywhere else in that area? How clear is the water in the stream? In the lake? Can it be snorkeled easily?

This could make a nice 4th or 5th chapter in my dissertation (depending on how we tie in the "Niche-izer" experiment). Then we can go fishin' together on grant money :)

Interesting stuff in any case!

Todd

#10 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:06 PM

Interesting... That is the Grand river watershed and they are found in some headwater areas but that downstream is unthinkable for a natural population given the natural barriers that exist. Might need to take a road trip to check this location out. Who would dump Greensides? this is an interesting question. I really can not seen then arriving there naturally in anyway.

#11 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:40 PM

Huh, this is getting interesting!
The lake and creed are both relatively clear(outside of normal rain run off and things), and while the creek itself is I think a bit small to snorkel, the lake is possible I'm sure. Even in the creek I suppose you could do so in the pools(such as they are). I've only sampled right at the bridge(nice rocky pool/riffle system there, full of darters and shiners), so don't know the conditions of the rest of the stream..but it appears to be a typical pool/riffle type stream.
I sampled this stream two times, and both times, caught one of these. I suppose it's possible I caught the SAME one twice(only kept any fish the second time), but that seems unlikely. I'll certainly take a closer look at it this spring, given this turn of events.
I did NOT include greensides on my collection permit...but will try to update it for this year, after this revelation. The lake IS an impoundment of sessions creek, so that could be a possible vector for the fish, ad walleye fishing is fairly popular on it. I also find it difficult, however, to fathom greenside darters being used as bait in any numbers, then getting released into such a small, obscure stream(from what I've seen and heard..virtualy NO fishing goes on, since it's not a trout stream). It would seem to be almost a miracle that these things would end up as bait, then survive the "bait bucket experience" THEN survive being released into the lake, then survive lake conditions long enough to make it through the dam...all in numbers enough to actually have me find two of them! But at the same time, it's obviously way outside of the natural location..so not alot of alternatives left, unless it's just a natural population that has been overlooked. There is another couple of streams in the area upstream of the lake that have similar natures(actually...I've never looked closely enough, so they may be branches of sessions creek...it might be interesting to sample them as well.
BTW, if any of you guys take a road trip, I'd enjoy tagging along to see pro's in action!

#12 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:01 PM

Interesting... That is the Grand river watershed and they are found in some headwater areas but that downstream is unthinkable for a natural population given the natural barriers that exist. Might need to take a road trip to check this location out. Who would dump Greensides? this is an interesting question. I really can not seen then arriving there naturally in anyway.


Mr. Neely has a nice article that relates to this - Range Extensions and Rapid Dispersal of Etheostoma blennioides (Teleostei: Percidae) in the Susquehanna River Drainage. Northeastern Naturalist 2006.

Yeah who would dump greensides is a great question to ask, but sure enough there it happens. There was a recent article in NE Naturalist about "invasive central muddminnow". Who would use those as bait or dump them? Who would go to the trouble and collect let, alone use a burrowing crayfish as bait, but a species not native to Maryland showed up around boat ramps on a reservior out of no where in the late 1980's. Or we can continue to blame it on wet goose feathers :mrgreen: right?

Richard what kind of downstream barriers to dispersal? I think there is alot we don't know about larval drift and darters that makes barriers, even large dams, passable (i.e. not much surprises me anymore when it relates to things showing downstream by getting washed down there).

#13 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:13 PM

If the stream is small, we can use the view buckets. They work great in those situations.

As Matt pointed out, greensides are enjoying our cultural eutrophication. While they may not have been able to get through post-glacial connections, they certainly are quick to capture their realized niche back from johnny darter, who were enjoying far too wide a functional niche :)

If ONE guy thought that greensides were the best bait on earth for catching walleye, it's not out of the question for him to get a breeding population established below the dam where he likes to catch his walleye, in habitat that was suitable, but merely left vacant because a species never made it over the moraine.

Carol will have Amanada run the genetics on these fish without question. That may point to a source population.

I'm presenting at SWMAS in Kalamazoo on April 4th on snorkelling North American streams. I think this need to be part of the planned field trips on the 5th and 6th!!!

Todd

#14 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:09 PM

Todd, if you solidify that idea, please let me know a time and date! I'd love to drop by and observe, or help out any way I can.

#15 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:42 PM

Sure thing! Was going to make a general announcement about that weekend sometime in late Feb / early March.

Todd

#16 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:29 PM

Sure thing! Was going to make a general announcement about that weekend sometime in late Feb / early March.

Todd

Cool.
I just hope that if you do decide to do this, it's not a bust, with only the "normal" rainbows showing up. The catch rate for me(just using a dip net, so not the most efficient method in the world) was likely about 10 or 12 to one, rainbows to these. In other wores...I cought about 2 dozen(total) rainbows, and two apparent greensides(cannot of course say for sure on the one I did not keep, it could also have been a johnny!). Oddly, it was 100 percent(as far as I can determine) FEMALE Rainbows...so maybe that spot is a seasonal hang out for the females(if such a thing exists with darters). The time of year I sampled was once in July(I believe) and once in late August. The pools is a bit deeper then the surounding stream, and being under a bridge, is shaded all day, so I'm sure a bit cooler as well.

#17 Guest_farmertodd_*

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:18 PM

If they're there, we'll find them :)

Todd

#18 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 06:58 PM

If they're there, we'll find them :)

Todd

Todd, in anticipation of sampling not only this stream, but others in the area, I applied today for an update to my collection permit. Currently I have only Johnnys, Rainbows, Blacksides and logperch on my 2008 permit(as again...I didn't realize these were greensides!). I have added greensides, Iowas, and orangethroat, in case I find any other "outliers" this summer. Hopefully an "update" is possible. I should know within a couple weeks.

#19 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:10 PM

Firm up the stuff and I'll try to be present as well...I would really like to see this....

In addition Todd, Nightwing if your interested, for some extra activity I'm looking at jumping a bunch of lakes in Hillsdale and Branch (St. Joe area) around that time too. (Target = Spotted gar) I'll send you (maybe post) some details later as we are still firming this up and figuring out the best coarse of action.

#20 Guest_teleost_*

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:36 PM

Poke me in advance of this since St. Joseph is an easy drive for me.




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