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Help please !

Started by Guest_crayfishbob_* , Feb 04 2008 07:51 PM

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36 replies to this topic

#1 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 07:51 PM

I found this site while looking for identification keys. I believe my lost friend Stuart Pinegar belonged to this group at one time before he passed away.

OK here's whats going on without going nto too many details. I need to identify 2 species of minnows ASAP or at least prove there IS two species in a group of fish. I will provide the pics and then hopefully by tomorrow I will have an answer. I will provide more info, but i'll let you know that law enforcement will be looking at this post.These are minnows.

I will make a second post with pics.

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item2.jpg 33.64KB 3 downloads

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#2 Guest_AndrewAcropora_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:20 PM

These shots are a little overexposed.
Also, where were the collected?

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#3 Guest_tglassburner_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:25 PM

I will provide more info, but i'll let you know that law enforcement will be looking at this post.These are minnows.

Why is law enforcement looking at this post?

My guess is Emerald Shiner Notropis atherinoides
Without location information it's just a guess.

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#4 Guest_ashtonmj_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:34 PM

I would highly suggest taking your identification needs to a local taxonomic authority/expert.

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#5 Guest_arnoldi_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:41 PM

Location location location, it's key in real estate and the NANFA forum.

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#6 Guest_smbass_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 09:29 PM

I would have to agree that these look like emerald shiners but without any locality info and some clearer pictures I'm not sure this is worth a whole lot.

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#7 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:03 PM

I would have to agree that these look like emerald shiners but without any locality info and some clearer pictures I'm not sure this is worth a whole lot.

Ok the first pic on top is allegidly from massachuettes and the second from new york state. This has to do with certified baitfish.

Side by side, I see clear differances. The first pic is the minnow from mass. I can clearly see the scales, wheras I cannot on the second one. I can clearly see a translucant green, neon like stripe on the one from NY. The body is round on the one from Mass, and oval on the one from NY. If need be, I can set up and do very clear dry land pictures. I need to know key features so I can hone in on them.

Here is a clearer pic :

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000_1632.jpg 145.56KB 0 downloads

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#8 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:06 PM

To clarify things < the first pic is the Mass minnow, and the second is the NY. I deleted the washed out pic on my original post.

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#9 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:13 PM

I would highly suggest taking your identification needs to a local taxonomic authority/expert.

Does anyone know of such a expert in Central New York ? This offense is both state and federal, so I really need to know what I'm doing. I myself am very confidant I have a case, however without a experts decision, or at least someone here to see what I'm talking about, I have nothing.

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#10 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:25 PM

To clarify even further , the very first pic-- The minnow in the foreground is the Mass. minnow. The minnow in the background slightly to the left is the NY minnow.

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#11 Guest_Nightwing_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:48 PM

I'll be honest..even though I would not under any circumstances take a crack at this anyway(my knowledge of shiners is very lacking)...the photo is still far too poor to make an ID on the second fish.
As to the front fish..fwiw, it looks just like the emeralds I am familiar with from Michigan. If pressed, the back/left fish look just like them also..but again, distance and blur make any kind of solid ID difficult.
I can clearly see the reflective green stripe on BOTH fish, and I can also see scales on both. The scales are clearly visible IN the neon stripe on the back(NY?) fish, even through the blur. They are certainly not dace or anything, IMO.

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#12 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:55 PM

They are probably both emeralds. However , I can see a geographic differance in them. I guess I REALLY need a person standing right here to see the differances.

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#13 Guest_Brooklamprey_*

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:36 AM

Drop fish in Alcohol and send them out to be Identified by a local taxonomist / Ichthyologist if you need a precise ID .... A pic will not guarantee ID 100%... Try contacting Universities and Government agencies to find the right person.. I'm not sure who does what in New york / Mass area..

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#14 Guest_troutperch beeman_*

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:32 PM

Crayfishbob,

Try talking to some at the Cornell Feild Station on Oneida Lake. I don't know how to contact them but they would be the ones to contact for local ID. I think their number is in the book.
Herschel

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#15 Guest_mikez_*

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:40 PM

You can contact Karsten Hartel at the Harvard University Icthyology dept here; http://www.mcz.harva...s/Fish/keh.html
He literally wrote the book on Massachsetts fish and is very cooperative and prompt with responses. He has id fish for me from photos in the past. Get some better shots first. Pics are clear enough, now get some with full broadside and close enough to count scales and fin rays.
Hope that helps.

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#16 Guest_sandtiger_*

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:45 PM

The others are right, it would be best to take the actual fish to someone for an ID. I live in Central NY but my cyprinid skills are quite poor. If you like I can email those photos to my ichthyology professor from when I was in college for you and let you know what he thinks.

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#17 Guest_crayfishbob_*

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:51 PM

I will try to contact Karsten Hartel asap. I guess there is another method of orgin ( seeing they probably the same specie ) is foresnic to find out the orgin of the minnows. I have the NYS pathologist working on this with me at this point and he suggested that avenue.